1 CONT'D DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BRUCK:
 2 Q    Okay.  Can you bring the story up to the point
 3 a few days before the death of the boys that you
 4 think is the right place to begin, the day-by-day
 5 account of what happened?
 6      Maybe before we do that, if you can give us a
 7 snapshot of Susan's emotional and mental state in
 8 mid October of 1994?
 9 A    Can I begin around August 1st?
10 Q    Okay.
11 A    I think the reason I want to do that is because
12 I think around August 1st Susan became much more
13 seriously depressed after David left for the final
14 time.  She sees herself as a single mother without
15 much money.  She is subject to David coming in and
16 out of the house at random, at will, even though if
17 there was an official separation.  David often comes
18 and insists on having sex, which she complies with,
19 but is no way being a consenting partner.  She does
20 not enjoy it.  She is worried about her sexual
21 activity, which is at this time point is beginning
22 to increase.  So she is involved with Cary Findlay.
23 She's also once again becoming involved with Bev
24 Russell at this point.
25 Q    With her stepfather?

                                                 Page 1

 1 A    Her stepfather.
 2 Q    When you say involved, were they having sexual
 3 intercourse?
 4 A    They were having oral sexual relations.
 5 Q    On a couple of occasions, maybe?
 6 A    On two occasions.
 7 Q    And other contact as well of some sort?
 8 A    Well, she was involved with Tom Findlay.  She
 9 was involved with David, and she was involved with
10 Cary Findlay, and on two occasions with Bev Russell.
11 Q    I see.
12 A    She is feeling desperate at this time.  She
13 worries about her future.  She worries about her
14 capacity as a mother.
15      One of the things that I haven't mentioned
16 about Susan yet is that what is pervasive in her
17 history is a fear of being alone.  That comes
18 through from early childhood.  I interviewed Susan's
19 mother Linda and she described this in great detail.
20 From earliest childhood, on, Susan has been somebody
21 who has needed some stimulation, needed somebody
22 around.  The fact that she was involved with a lot
23 of people sexually at this point looks like a
24 desperate searching for somebody to deal with the
25 loneliness that she perceived was coming when she

                                                 Page 2

 1 was going to break up with David.  I think she
 2 consented to sex with David simply because she
 3 thought that it might enable her to hold on to him
 4 and it gave her somebody to be with.
 5      I think during the month of August -- we also
 6 begin to -- we also see that she begins to drink
 7 more.  There are a number of occasions when she gets
 8 intoxicated, including on one occasion she drove
 9 home while intoxicated.  And that's kind of a new
10 pattern in her life.
11      I think during the month of August, all through
12 and into September, where her depression became much
13 worse.  She tells me that during the sixty or ninety
14 days before the death of her boys she thought about
15 suicide just about every day.  Whereas in the past
16 years it never been that frequent.  There was some
17 days where she thought about it, and other days
18 where she did not.
19      And I think the next point to get to is the
20 Friday before the 25th.
21 Q    Now, before we have get to that, you have
22 referred to her depression.  Based on the history
23 that you have learned, was this evident to the
24 people around her - her family, her friends, her
25 co-workers at Conso?

                                                 Page 3

 1 A    There were a few people who guessed that there
 2 was something wrong with Susan, but nobody really
 3 had a sense of the depth of her depression.  For two
 4 reasons.  One is she was very good at covering up.
 5 And the other reason was that she is the kind of a
 6 person who, when her loneliness is satisfied,
 7 doesn't feel depressed.  So when things are going
 8 very, very well with people, her depression at least
 9 temporarily diminishes.
10      If there is any threat to those relationships,
11 if she begins to fear loneliness again, she
12 immediately gets depressed again.
13      And in that sense, her depression is little bit
14 atypical and not like the kind you see where
15 somebody is depressed twenty-four hours a day for
16 months at a time.  Susan was not like that.  There
17 were time when she felt okay.  And it's hard to
18 assess how often those times were because she was so
19 good at covering up how bad she felt.
20 Q    Through all of this, of course, she was a
21 mother?
22 A    Right.
23 Q    She was caring for two little boys?
24 A    Right.
25 Q    Do you have any opinion about how she

                                                 Page 4

 1 functioned as a mother?
 2 A    Only what I know is what other people have said
 3 about her.  And uniformly everybody said that she
 4 was an excellent mother.
 5 Q    Loved the children?
 6 A    Loved the children.
 7 Q    Cared for them?
 8 A    And my own impressions and spending a lot of
 9 time with her is that she certainly loved the
10 children.  She's a highly responsible mother.
11      THE COURT:  Counsel, we are almost ten minutes
12 to one.  I'm trying to gauge time.  Is this an
13 appropriate place to stop?
14      MR. POPE:  This probably is a good place to
15 stop.
16                   *   *   *   *   *
17      (recess taken)
18                   *   *   *   *   *
19      (back on the record)
20                   *   *   *   *   *
21      (jury in the courtroom)
22                   *   *   *   *   *
23 CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BRUCK:
24 Q    Good afternoon Dr. Halleck.
25      We were just concluding the history that you

                                                 Page 5

 1 took or obtained in this case leading up to October --
 2 the weekend of October 21st-23rd.  And you had
 3 discussed some of the marital difficulties.
 4      In the history that you obtained, you referred
 5 to adulterous relationships on both sides of this
 6 marriage.
 7      Does the history indicate to you whether Susan
 8 Smith was engaged in any sexual relationships with
 9 anyone other than David during the period of time
10 during the marriage in which they lived together?
11 A    In the history I obtained, the only time she
12 was involved with other men was when she was
13 separated from David.
14 Q    And when they were living together?
15 A    When she was living with David, she says there
16 was no evidence that she was involved with other
17 men.
18 Q    Now, of course, this information comes from
19 Susan alone?
20 A    Mostly.
21 Q    Were you able to corroborate any of the marital
22 difficulty from other sources in the history as a
23 general matter?
24 A    As I recall, there were many observers who were
25 aware that there was some marital strife going on.

                                                 Page 6

 1 There was some people who were sympathetic to Susan
 2 over the way they perceived David's treating her.
 3 Q    I see.  Well, did you interview David Smith in
 4 the course of gathering this history?
 5 A    I did not.  I did write to his attorney -- to
 6 him through his attorney.
 7 Q    Right.
 8 A    Asking him to be interviewed, but I never did
 9 hear from him.
10 Q    So he apparently declined to be interviewed?
11 A    He didn't respond.
12 Q    He did not respond.  And you explained the
13 purpose of why you needed to speak with him?
14      MR. POPE:  Your Honor, if Mr. Bruck could not
15 testify.  If he could just ask the question and not
16 lead, please, Your Honor.
17      THE COURT:  As to the last question, I would
18 overrule.  But in general, don't lead your witness.
19 The last question is not leading.
20 Q    Did you explain in your letter why it was that
21 you needed to speak with him or why it was?
22 A    Yes, I did.
23 Q    Have you been able to review his recently his
24 about to be published book?
25 A    I browsed through it briefly yesterday, the

                                                 Page 7

 1 only chance that I have had.
 2 Q    Now, you have spoken about depression, symptoms
 3 of depression.
 4      Can you summarize these symptoms of depression
 5 that you have obtained in the history during the
 6 period leading up to the -- two or three months
 7 leading up to October 25th?
 8 A    The most prominent thing was sad mood most of
 9 the day, accompanied by crying spells.
10      She did not stop her usual activity, so she did
11 not have that continuously.
12      She was beginning to have some difficulty in
13 concentrating.  She was experiencing fairly severe
14 nausea and loss of appetite, even though she was
15 trying to diet.  She was experiencing some
16 diminution of energy.
17 Q    Diminution of energy?  That is low energy?
18 A    Low energy.  She did things but she didn't feel
19 with any excessive vivaciousness.
20      She also was constantly down on herself, and
21 her self image was getting worse by the day.  And
22 many feelings of guilt and worthlessness.
23 Q    Did the history at this time include any
24 feeling about any findings concerning suicidality?
25 A    During this time she had thoughts of suicide

                                                 Page 8

 1 almost every day.
 2 Q    Now, this picture that you -- these symptoms
 3 that you have outlined, would they have been or were
 4 they visible to most people?
 5 A    Probably not.  It would depend upon when you
 6 saw Susan Smith.  If you saw her when she was
 7 crying, obviously it would have been visible.  If
 8 you saw her when she let down her guard, it would be
 9 visible.  If you saw her when she had her guard up,
10 or at a time when she happened for awhile to be
11 feeling good, you would not be able to interpret
12 that she was depressed or suicidal.
13 Q    So if there were people who saw her say at the
14 university going to a class?
15 A    In that kind of setting, she probably would
16 have looked perfectly normal.
17 Q    At work most of the time?
18 A    Most of the time, except during the times when
19 she would break down and begin to confide in people.
20 Q    Or just out in the community and going to the
21 store with the kids and doing things around town?
22 A    I think she would try especially hard in the
23 community to put up a pretense or facade of being
24 okay.
25 Q    And you differentiate between putting up a

                                                 Page 9

 1 facade on the one hand and letting her guard down.
 2 Can you relate that to whether she was alone or with
 3 people?  Which would she be more likely to do in
 4 this situation?
 5 A    Well, she characteristically would let go when
 6 she was alone, for two reasons.  One was safe to let
 7 go.  And the other is she was so frightened of being
 8 alone.
 9 Q    Can you expound on that a little bit?
10 A    Well, Susan consistently had a fear of being
11 alone and needs constant stimulation.  Without that
12 stimulation, she begins to get panicky.
13 Q    Stimulation is a word with different meanings.
14 What do you mean by stimulation?
15 A    She needs to be interacting with people.  She
16 needs to have somebody to talk to, somebody who is
17 involved with her in one way or another.
18      Even in her prison cell, she tries awfully hard
19 to talk to whoever will talk to her.  The officers
20 in the prison, or any other inmates, are not
21 supposed to talk to her.  Her worst moments are at
22 night in the prison when they turn off the TV and
23 when nobody is around to talk.  And that's when she
24 begins to get all these goblins to make her feel
25 terrified.

                                                 Page 10

 1 Q    Okay.  I would like you to, if you would, pick
 2 up the story on Friday, October 25th, and relate to
 3 the jury what, according to your understanding,
 4 happened.
 5 A    Well, Friday morning began with David coming
 6 over I believe it was six in the morning.  And it
 7 was initially friendly, and then ended up vacuuming
 8 the carpets, following which he had sex with Susan.
 9      Following that he began to give her a hard time
10 in the sense that he told her that he knew that she
11 was fooling around with somebody other than this Tom
12 Findlay.  That he knew about Tom Findlay, and he
13 knows who went on there and he was going to find out
14 about it.  He also told her that he was watching her
15 and that he was going to report her to the IRS for
16 cheating.  So it ended up in a fairly large scale
17 fight.  Susan -- not physical, just argument.  Susan
18 afterwards was very desperate.
19 Q    Now, you mentioned -- was there any mention of
20 Cary Findlay at this time?
21 A    Yes, there was.
22 Q    And how did that come out?
23 A    Well, actually my recollection is that Susan
24 eventually told David about Cary, assuming that he
25 knew it anyway, and then worried about whether she

                                                 Page 11

 1 should have told him in the first place.
 2 Q    Right.
 3 A    Once she had told David about Cary Findlay,
 4 Susan became panicked.  She began to get frantic, as
 5 she so often gets, and felt like she had to do
 6 something at that point to resurrect the situation.
 7      Also on Friday there were some problems with
 8 her girlfriend, Donna Garner.  Apparently Susan had
 9 told her something about her boyfriend, Donna's
10 boyfriend, running around.  So there was a lot of
11 emotion about that.  And the boyfriend came over.
12 They made up again.  But those were the significant
13 events on Friday.
14 Q    Why, if you know, was she not at work on that
15 day?
16 A    She was feeling bad.  She was feeling bad many
17 of these days, and it looks like she was taking off
18 a number of days.  And also was drinking a lot.
19 Some days was having a hangover.
20 Q    Okay.  If you could tell us about the events,
21 any significant events, that occurred on the
22 weekend?
23 A    The major thing is that on Sunday she went to
24 see Tom Findlay.
25 Q    See, or speak to, if you know?

                                                 Page 12

 1 A    I don't really recall that.  I know she spoke
 2 to him.  I thought she saw him after he got back
 3 from a trip that he had been on.  And she revealed
 4 to him that she had been involved with her
 5 stepfather Bev Russell.
 6 Q    Okay.  And what, if you know, was her mood
 7 during that conversation?
 8 A    She apparently was tearful, was afraid that he
 9 would be upset with her and angry with her, and
10 generally depressed.
11 Q    If you recall, was there any discussion with
12 Tom about David and what he knew and what he might
13 do, any of that?  Realizing you weren't here for Mr.
14 Findlay's testimony, but from the history?
15 A    I don't know if she discussed that with Tom.  I
16 think she was very worried about what David was
17 going to do.
18 Q    Right.
19      THE COURT:  Counsel, if you could keep your
20 voice up, please.
21      MR. BRUCK:  Yes, sir.
22 Q    All right.  What, if anything, occurred on the
23 following day; that is, Monday the 24th of October?
24 A    As I recall, it was a relatively uneventful
25 day, with the exception of David coming over that

                                                 Page 13

 1 evening and once again trying to have sex with
 2 Susan, which she turned down.
 3 Q    Okay.  And what effect, if any, did that have
 4 on David and on the interaction between them?
 5 A    He was angry when he left.  This was one of the
 6 really rare occasions when she turned him down.
 7 Q    When she turned him down.
 8      If you could, relate for us in the history and
 9 the events as you have learned them of Tuesday,
10 October the 25th.
11 A    Susan picked up the kids and brought them to
12 the baby-sitter, and then went to work.  She was
13 driving somebody around town by the name of Ryan in
14 the morning.  She then went out to lunch with her
15 usual group, including Tom Findlay, and that was
16 uneventful.
17      About two o'clock she asked to talk to Mr.
18 Findlay alone and told him that there was something
19 she had to tell him, and prefaced that with what she
20 usually says is "you are going to hate me.  Please
21 don't hate me if I tell you."
22      At this point she revealed to him that she had
23 been having sexual relationships with Cary Findlay.
24 He appeared to handle that in a relatively calm way,
25 and said to her -- well, he was upset about it, and

                                                 Page 14

 1 this really meant that they couldn't be lovers, but
 2 that he still wanted to be friends.  He still cared
 3 about her.
 4 Q    I should mention, by the way, doctor, before
 5 you came here, of course, Mr. Findlay has testified,
 6 so all that needs to be related is is to make clear
 7 the basis of your opinion.
 8 A    She went to see him again a couple of hours
 9 later and felt like she wanted some sign of
10 affection from him, which didn't come.
11      And then a couple hours after that she went to
12 see him again and said she had just made up the
13 whole story.  And he was offended and asked her to
14 leave.
15 Q    All right.  What happened next with Susan?
16 A    She went home.  She tried to call the Hickory
17 Nuts place where she knew Tom was to see if there
18 was anybody there who could talk to her.  Susan
19 Brown was sitting next to Mr. Findlay and she
20 elected to talk.  Mr. Findlay was sitting next to
21 her.
22      Susan also made dinner for the children.  She
23 cooked pizza for them.
24      She then called her mother and said she wanted
25 to come over.  Her mother indicated that she was

                                                 Page 15

 1 going to see I think one of the grandsons in some
 2 kind of sport events, but she would be home at eight
 3 o'clock.
 4      By this point Susan is frantic.  Susan feels
 5 that she is losing everybody.  That she's losing
 6 David, that she's losing Tom, and is very fearful of
 7 the aloneness.  She's crying in the house.  The
 8 children can hear her crying, and they are crying
 9 too.
10 Q    I should ask you.  During this time, do you
11 recall whether or not there were any phone calls
12 from David?
13 A    David called right before Susan left the house
14 and wanted to know what was wrong, because he sensed
15 there was something wrong at this point.
16 Q    Okay.  Were the children crying at this time?
17 A    I don't know if you could hear the children
18 crying in the background or not.
19 Q    But they were crying at that time?
20 A    They were crying, yes.
21 Q    And was Susan crying?
22 A    Susan was crying, yes.
23 Q    If you could now relate for the ladies and
24 gentlemen of the jury what happened as Susan left
25 the house.

                                                 Page 16

 1 A    Well --
 2 Q    Where was she going when she left?
 3 A    She didn't know where she was going.  She began
 4 driving rather aimlessly.  During the drive she is
 5 crying constantly.
 6 Q    Now, you have mentioned that she had told her
 7 mother that she was going to go to her mother's
 8 house?
 9 A    Right.
10 Q    Was -- if you know, was this the initial plan
11 as she left?
12 A    This was the initial plan, but I don't think
13 she went in that direction.
14 Q    Okay.
15 A    But as she is driving, she is constantly
16 crying.  Uncharacteristically for her she turns off
17 the car radio, which she usually doesn't.  She finds
18 her body shaking uncontrollably.  She feels
19 nauseous.  She bit her nails during that one hour
20 drive off completely.  She showed me -- the last
21 time she told me about it was on July 7th she showed
22 me the size of her nails on that date, and said they
23 were bitten down to the very end just in the course
24 of that.  She said they were about that big when she
25 started to drive, but at the end of the drive they

                                                 Page 17

 1 were gone.
 2      So she was driving and thinking that she has to
 3 kill herself, and thinking that that's the only
 4 solution, because there is nobody around who cares
 5 for her.
 6      She eventually reaches a bridge over the Broad
 7 River and stops the car on the bridge and
 8 contemplates jumping in the river and contemplates
 9 taking the children with her.  She hears Michael
10 crying and decides not to do that.
11 Q    Had the children been asleep previously?
12 A    They were asleep on and off, but at the point
13 she was at the bridge Michael was crying.
14      She resumes driving and a couple of times
15 almost went off the road because she was shaking and
16 so distressed she gets to the lake.  She gets to the
17 lake --
18 Q    Had she intended to go to the lake when she
19 left the bridge?
20 A    I don't know how she got to the lake.  I don't
21 know if she intended that or not.  She just seemed
22 to drive and she ended up there.
23      It's interesting that she had gone to the lake
24 previously when she -- to commit suicide.
25      The events at the lake, as I understand them,

                                                 Page 18

 1 are that she drove the car to the ramp, that she set
 2 the hand brake, that she then released the hand
 3 brake, and then pulled it up again.  Then she then
 4 released the hand brake again and jumped out of the
 5 car.
 6 Q    Was there a time when she got out of the car
 7 and walked around or got out all, if you recall?
 8 A    I don't believe so.
 9 Q    If you could tell us what her thoughts were, as
10 you have been able to reconstruct them, during the
11 time at the lake?
12 A    The main thought she had was that she had to
13 die.  She also at various time she was driving to
14 the like and before she got there felt that she had
15 to take the kids with her.  She felt that she had to
16 take the kids with her because she was concerned
17 that they would be raised without a mother.  She
18 worried about her own upbringing without a father.
19 She feared conflict between her mother and David and
20 feared what would happen to the children if she
21 wasn't there.
22      I should add all of this is irrational.  I do
23 not think that she was thinking rationally at that
24 point.
25      And here I think it's important to emphasize

                                                 Page 19

 1 her strong religious convictions.  She firmly
 2 believed that the children would go to heaven, and
 3 she firmly believed that she would go to heaven.
 4 Q    What occurred, if you know, at the moment that
 5 she released the hand brake the last time and the
 6 car rolled into the lake?
 7 A    I can only make the assumption that -- when she
 8 released it and ran out of the car, do you mean?
 9 Q    Right.
10 A    When she ran out of the car, that her self
11 preservation feelings took over.  And although up to
12 that moment she fully intended to kill herself, she
13 got frightened and her survival instincts took over.
14 Q    And what of the children?
15 A    It's unclear from my discussions with her
16 whether she remembers whether the children were
17 actually in the car at the moment she ran out.  Of
18 course, she said they were there later.  And, of
19 course, they were there when they were driving
20 there.
21      But her level of anxiety, her level of despair,
22 her level of franticness was such that it is
23 possible that she blocked out the awareness that
24 they were in the car.  She's told me different
25 stories about this, and out of that I have concluded

                                                 Page 20

 1 she doesn't really remember.
 2 Q    Now, I want to pursue that.  You say that
 3 there has been some variation in what was in her
 4 mind?
 5 A    Yes.
 6 Q    Well, wouldn't that lead you to conclude that
 7 she's just telling more lies about this?
 8 A    No, because the answer she often gives is the
 9 one that you would think she would want me to hear.
10 So some of the times she says "I knew the kids were
11 in the car.  I must have known."
12 Q    "must have known."
13 A    "I must have known."  And she says it in such a
14 way that I don't really believe that she knew.
15 Q    And at other times she says --
16 A    At other times she says "well, I couldn't have
17 known they were there, or I wouldn't have done
18 that."  And she says that in such a way, so I'm not
19 convinced she really remembers.
20 Q    So what conclusion do you draw from that?
21 A    The main conclusion is that I don't know.  I
22 don't think that she knows.
23 Q    You don't know?
24 A    I don't know whether she had full awareness
25 that the children were in the car.

                                                 Page 21

 1 Q    You simply don't know?
 2 A    I don't know.
 3 Q    You are unable to form an opinion?
 4 A    That's right.  I don't think she knows.
 5 Q    You don't think she knows?
 6 A    Correct.
 7 Q    Well, do you have an opinion as to whether she
 8 knew shortly thereafter she ran up the hill?
 9 A    She certainly did.  By the time she ran up the
10 hill and stopped and turned around, she became very
11 much aware that the children were there.
12 Q    If she had not been before?
13 A    If she had not been before, yes.
14 Q    And what all happened as she ran up the hill?
15      Let me ask you something first.  Did she watch
16 the car go into the lake?
17 A    I don't believe so.  She ran screaming, ran to
18 the top of the hill, looked back and couldn't see
19 the car, and at that point continued to run.  At
20 this point she was fully aware that the children
21 were in the car and the car was in the lake.
22 Q    Well, is it really believable that she would
23 have known before she arrived at the ramp that they
24 were there and tt she knew moments later, but that
25 she might not have fully been aware at the time that

                                                 Page 22

 1 she actually committed the act?
 2 A    It's certainly possible.  I think people who
 3 are experiencing as agonizing a stress as she was
 4 experiencing are capable of blocking things out.  So
 5 my answer to that is that's possible.
 6 Q    But you do not have an opinion that that is
 7 probable, or that you do not have a medical opinion
 8 within a reasonable degree of medical certainty?
 9 A    I can't use the word probable.
10 Q    Okay.  Tell us what happened as she ran up the
11 hill towards Shirley McCloud's house.
12 A    As she ran up the hill, she began thinking
13 about what she would tell people.  And her first
14 impulse was that people will hate me, people will
15 reject me, I cannot tell people anything that's
16 horrible.  And it will, you know, do something to my
17 image of myself that I will let people think of me
18 which I will find unbearable.
19 Q    Well -- excuse me.
20 A    As she was running up the hill, she was making
21 up a story.
22 Q    Well, if she had wanted to be dead a few
23 moments before, why would she be worrying about
24 these things now?
25 A    I think at this point her self preservation

                                                 Page 23

 1 instincts took over.
 2 Q    And she went to the house?
 3 A    She went to the house.
 4 Q    And told the story?
 5 A    And told the story.
 6 Q    Had she formulated this story in her mind
 7 before the car went into the lake?
 8 A    I could find no evidence that she had.  And it
 9 is entirely credible to me that a story with this
10 many loopholes could have been created in those few
11 seconds when she was running up the hill.
12 Q    Now, you considered, did you not, the tenacity
13 with which she clung to this story over the next
14 nine days?
15 A    Yes.  Yes.
16 Q    Do you have any assessment of that?
17 A    There were two things going on.  One is she has
18 told me that she was very content on trying find a
19 way to kill herself during that time, but there was
20 no access to weapons.  Apparently her stepfather had
21 hidden the guns.  And she had looked for the guns
22 during that time.
23      The other thing is that she --
24 Q    I should ask also, was she alone during this
25 time?

                                                 Page 24

 1 A    She was never alone.
 2      She also became, you know, caught up with the
 3 lies she had already begun to tell and kept
 4 wondering at what point she would have to tell the
 5 truth.  And was just terrified of what she would
 6 have experienced at that moment.
 7 Q    Now, this, of course, is the point I suppose of
 8 which you talked about the need for skepticism?
 9 A    Yes.
10 Q    What basis, if any, do you have for confidence
11 that this account is accurate?
12 A    You need to clarify for me what you mean by
13 this account.  Do you mean her account?
14 Q    Her account of what happened and didn't happen
15 at the lake.
16 A    I have no reason to doubt her account of what
17 happened.  I mean, she's acknowledging that account
18 that she's lied.  And that in every other way with
19 me during the interview she has consistently not
20 lied and consistently has not tried to portray
21 herself as a sympathetic person.
22      I should say in no way did she try to get my
23 sympathy or anyone else's.  From the beginning of
24 our interview, she portrayed herself as a bad
25 person, as an evil person.

                                                 Page 25

 1 Q    Did she seem to feel any remorse?
 2 A    Any?
 3 Q    Remorse.
 4 A    Yes.
 5 Q    You said at the beginning that one of the
 6 things that you did during your psychiatric
 7 interview was to assess her current functioning;
 8 that is, when you saw her, I believe, beginning in
 9 the late winter and going on into early summer in
10 prison.  Could you relate to the jury how she was
11 doing then?
12      MR. POPE:  Your Honor, I object to the current
13 function as to relevance of this as to the guilt
14 phase.
15      MR. BRUCK:  I can lay a foundation.
16      THE COURT:  All right, sir.
17 Q    Is part of your evaluation on the issue of
18 suicide and depression, does it require you to
19 assess the current as well as the past functioning?
20 A    Yes.
21 Q    And why is that important, to assess?
22 A    Well, if you know what somebody is like now,
23 it's a little bit easier to predict what they might
24 have been like before.  Of course, she's in
25 unusually bad circumstances now.

                                                 Page 26

 1 Q    Right.  So you had to factor in --
 2 A    That factors in, yes.
 3 Q    Okay.  With that understanding, did you make an
 4 assessment of how she is currently functioning?
 5 A    When I first saw her on the 23rd of February, I
 6 thought she was quite seriously depressed.  And I
 7 think I talked with you about the possibility of
 8 suicide in prison.
 9 Q    Yes.
10 A    And kind of warned that she needed to be
11 watched much more carefully.
12 Q    Uh-huh.
13 A    On the 23rd I was even more concerned.  After I
14 left, I think I talked to you again about that
15 possibility.  And really wondered if she shouldn't
16 be on antidepressant medication, which I think was
17 started.
18 Q    Eventually?
19 A    Either then, or shortly after Dr. Morgan saw
20 her.
21      When I saw her on the 13th of June, she was
22 still very depressed, although on a lot of
23 medications, so it was very hard to tell where she
24 was coming from.  She seemed calmer on medication.
25 Q    She seemed calm?

                                                 Page 27

 1 A    Calmer, with a lot of medication.
 2 Q    This included sedatives?
 3 A    It included sedatives.  But if anything, more
 4 depressed.
 5 Q    Okay.
 6 A    When I saw her on the 7th of July, she was
 7 looking a little more lively, a little less sedated,
 8 but still depressed.
 9      I should say that on every interview I had with
10 her, each of the four interviews, she told me that
11 if she had a chance to kill herself, she would.
12 That if she were not being watched constantly, and
13 if she had the means to kill herself, that she would
14 do it.
15 Q    Now, of course, could this be simply due to the
16 fact that her children are dead and she's in prison
17 awaiting trial for the murder?
18 A    It could be, but it's such a -- it is so
19 consistent with her history and with the
20 suicidalities since age thirteen, that I can see it
21 as manifestation -- a continuing manifestation of
22 her illness.
23 Q    Now, did you detect any difference in her
24 condition between the time before she was on
25 antidepressant medications, when you say were

                                                 Page 28

 1 started in prison, and the last time that you saw
 2 her?
 3 A    She told me the last time that I saw her that
 4 being on the Prozac makes it harder for her to cry.
 5 Q    Yes.
 6 A    And that she really feels somewhat better on
 7 it.  She feels less depressed, but still suicidal.
 8 Q    Okay.  Now, the fact that Prozac had this
 9 effect, if it did, is that something which factors
10 into your psychiatric assessment of her condition
11 going back in time?
12 A    Well, it supports the idea that she's had
13 serious depression.
14 Q    Do you have an opinion as to whether
15 antidepressant medication would have made a
16 difference to her functioning on October 25th, 1994?
17 A    Yes, I do.
18 Q    And what is that opinion?
19 A    I think if she had been adequately treated with
20 Prozac in the preceding weeks and months, the death
21 of her children would never have happened.
22 Q    Now, I began this examination some hours ago by
23 laying out for you the issue that we needed you to
24 help the jury decide, that being was this a suicide
25 attempt or was it a planned murder of her children

                                                 Page 29

 1 for an ulterior motive.  And I would like to ask you
 2 on the basis of everything that you have learned, if
 3 you have an opinion on that?
 4 A    I have a very strong opinion, that the intent
 5 was suicide.
 6 Q    If you would bear with me just a moment.
 7      (off the record)
 8      (back on the record)
 9 Q    Dr. Halleck, I have no further questions for
10 you.
11      MR. POPE:  If it please the court?
12      THE COURT:  Yes, sir, counselor,
13 cross-examination.
14 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. POPE:
15 Q    Doctor, if you would, bear with me.  I have
16 been making a few notes here.
17      Doctor, you related basically to the jury
18 almost a story of what your understanding of what
19 happened to Susan Smith that night, from the time
20 that she got in the car, drove to the lake, and so
21 on and so forth.  Is that correct?
22 A    That's correct.
23 Q    And it flowed even as far as -- I recall you
24 saying where she had run off the road and
25 uncharacteristically turned off the radio.  She

                                                 Page 30

 1 didn't know where she was going.  She was just
 2 crying, so on and so forth?
 3 A    That's correct.
 4 Q    You said uncharacteristically she turned off
 5 the radio so it was silent in the car?
 6 A    Correct.
 7 Q    How do you know that that is uncharacteristic
 8 for her?
 9 A    She tells me that she always drives with the
10 radio on.  And I have intended to believe that
11 because she is the kind of person who wants the
12 stimulation of outside forces, of sounds.
13 Q    So based on your analysis of her and your
14 interviewing her, you are able to determine whether
15 she's the type of person who leaves the car radio on
16 in her car or not?
17 A    Well, she says she does.
18 Q    Okay.  So, again, when you were going through
19 the story and -- I mean, basically you gave a
20 narrative of how she drove and what she did, is that
21 correct?
22 A    That's correct.
23 Q    You think she had to kill herself, stopped at a
24 bridge, almost went off the road.  These were all
25 things that she related to you, is that correct?

                                                 Page 31

 1 A    That's correct.
 2 Q    Okay.  Doctor, you have also reviewed her --
 3 the different accounts, I presume, that she gave of
 4 what happened when the black man with the toboggan
 5 entered her car?
 6 A    Yes.
 7 Q    And so you are aware in those instances she
 8 also said she stopped at the light, a man entered my
 9 car, he said certain things, he smelled a certain
10 way, and he had a gun, etcetera.  You are aware of
11 that, aren't you?
12 A    Yes.
13 Q    Doctor, you said -- and forgive me if I
14 misquote this, but you said that you felt like she
15 had a major depression?
16 A    I felt that in the months preceding this event,
17 beginning in August, that she had many of the
18 criteria of major depression.  She might not
19 technically have qualified for that diagnosis, for
20 the reasons I can get into if you want to.
21 Q    Okay.  First let me understand.  When you say
22 qualified -- the criteria, that was referring to the
23 DSM --
24 A    The DSM-4 criteria.
25 Q    And the DSM-4 criteria.  What mental illness

                                                 Page 32

 1 are we talking about?  Or is it a mental illness?
 2 Is it disorder?  Could you explain that to the jury?
 3 A    Well, the DSM-4 does not use the term illness.
 4 Only uses the term disorder.
 5 Q    Yes, sir.
 6 A    And that is because it's so difficult to define
 7 the term illness or disease.
 8 Q    So as a disorder, what we are talking about
 9 here is depressive disorder?  Is that what it would
10 be in DSM?
11 A    The diagnosis -- if I were forced to use DSM
12 criteria?
13 Q    Yes.
14 A    The diagnosis I would use, simply because of
15 the criteria are so rigid, would not be major
16 depressive disorder, but would be depressive
17 disorder not otherwise specified.
18 Q    Okay.
19 A    And underneath that there are a number of
20 examples of situations in which that diagnosis
21 applies.  And the one that's most relevant to Susan
22 Smith is brief intermittent depressive disorder.
23 Q    Brief intermittent depressive disorder.  Is
24 that subcategory, is that basically saying what it
25 appears on its surface?  That the periods of

                                                 Page 33

 1 depression are brief and they are intermittent?  Is
 2 that what that means?
 3 A    Yeah, it's a research category.  The only
 4 reason Susan Smith does not qualify for major
 5 depression for years is that she has good days.  And
 6 one of the strict criteria for being called major
 7 depression is you can't have any good days for at
 8 least two weeks at a time.
 9 Q    All right.
10 A    So the category brief recurrent depressive
11 disorder was created to describe people who are very
12 very ill, but who do not meet the criteria, the
13 current criteria, for major depressive disorder.
14 Q    And so that would account for the fact that
15 it's intermittent -- and I guess thi answers my
16 first question.  A major depressive -- depression
17 episode, and I apologize if I'm using the wrong
18 terms, the major depression, one of the
19 characteristics is -- and there are a number of
20 criteria, but is an ongoing pattern, is that
21 correct, like a continuous nature?
22 A    There has to be either an ongoing pattern of
23 sad mood for over two weeks or a pattern of complete
24 withdrawal from activities for two weeks.  And since
25 Susan has never fit either one of those, I would be

                                                 Page 34

 1 hesitant to use the diagnosis of major depressive
 2 disorder.
 3 Q    Okay.  And, again, because, like you say, it
 4 was intermittent, it would be up and down?
 5 A    Correct.
 6 Q    And does that account for why it is that all
 7 the standard symptoms that you would see in the
 8 depressive disorder, I think like the number that
 9 you hit on, loss of appetite, personal hygiene,
10 energy, all the different things -- you named a list
11 of things, is that right?
12 A    Yes, she had quite a number of these things on
13 the list, but not all of them.
14 Q    She didn't always have those in the period that
15 would have made it major depression, is that
16 correct?
17 A    She didn't have enough of those, plus the
18 consistency of the sad mood and the withdrawal from
19 activities.
20 Q    So sometimes she may have one, and then the
21 other, and different?
22 A    That's true.
23 Q    Is the fact that it's intermittent, is that why
24 no one, you know, with few exceptions at work ever
25 sees -- I think you said work, community, and -- is

                                                 Page 35

 1 it public or -- or with friends?  You had indicated
 2 that normally nobody -- everybody saw the happy
 3 side?  Nobody ever saw these symptoms, right?
 4 A    Well, again, there are two reasons why people
 5 didn't see it.  One was that it wasn't intermittent.
 6 The other was that she tried to cover up her
 7 sadness.
 8 Q    She tried to conceal it?
 9 A    Conceal it.
10 A    That's right.
11 Q    Doctor, what I would like to do is kind of just
12 briefly track and hit the high points back through
13 the chronology that you gave and the information
14 that you based your decision on.
15      First, let me ask you, had you talked with Mr.
16 Bruck about the different issues, and you are also
17 an attorney, is that correct?
18 A    No, I'm not.  I'm a law professor, but I'm not
19 an attorney.
20 Q    Okay.  You teach at the law school?
21 A    I teach at the law school.
22 Q    Now, you understand that the defense is not
23 saying that Susan Smith is insane?  Do you
24 understand that?
25 A    That's my understanding.

                                                 Page 36

 1 Q    And is that what you say, that she's not
 2 insane?
 3 A    That's my understanding.  That's my opinion.
 4 Q    Your opinion -- and so in laymen's terms, we
 5 talk about insanity, that means knowing legal and
 6 moral right from legal and moral wrong, is that
 7 correct?  Or knowing that the act is legally or
 8 morally wrong?
 9 A    I think she knew the act was legally and
10 morally wrong -- was legally wrong.
11 Q    Okay.
12 A    There is a question about morally, but she knew
13 it was legally wrong.
14 Q    You said morally, based on her strong religious
15 beliefs?
16 A    Well, I think she was irrational at the time
17 and made irrational decisions to take her kids with
18 her.
19 Q    She was irrational?
20 A    And also she had strong religious beliefs that
21 the kids would survive with her in heaven.  So it's
22 possible she may not have known it was morally
23 wrong.  But she certainly knew it was legally wrong.
24 Q    Okay.  Going back to the morally aspect of it,
25 you had indicated that based on her irrational

                                                 Page 37

 1 belief or her religious belief, that she would have
 2 believed that the children and she would all go to
 3 heaven if she committed suicide, is that correct?
 4 A    That's correct.
 5 Q    And that was based on that's where she felt her
 6 father was?
 7 A    That's correct.
 8 Q    And you told the jury that you reviewed all the
 9 information that Ms. Andrews had spoke yesterday
10 provided, is that correct?
11 A    Yes.
12 Q    Are you aware of Dr. Sweet, the counselor at
13 the school that she went to in I believe in '85?
14 A    She was one of the names mentioned, yes.
15 Q    Are you aware that Susan Smith told her --
16      MR. BRUCK:  Objection, Your Honor.
17 Q    -- that she had concerns as to her father being
18 in hell because --
19      THE COURT:  All right, counselor before you
20 publish that, your objection is the same one that
21 you --
22      MR. BRUCK:  Yes, I'm objecting to the
23 foundation.
24      THE COURT:  Counsel, if you will approach the
25 bench over to the side bar.

                                                 Page 38

 1      (Lawyers approached the bench)
 2      THE COURT:  Counsel, you may proceed.
 3 Q    If it please the court, doctor, you had
 4 indicated earlier that you had relied on Ms. Andrews
 5 information that she had gathered?
 6 A    Partly, yes.
 7 Q    Partly?
 8 A    Yes.
 9 Q    When you say partly, you partly relied on it,
10 or you relied on part of it?
11 A    I relied on part of it.
12 Q    Did she choose what you relied on, or did you
13 choose what you relied on?
14 A    I read all the materials she collected.  She
15 synopsized the material and I read it.
16 Q    So it was a large volume of material she
17 collected?
18 A    That's correct.
19 Q    And so she sent you the synopsis of -- the
20 nutshell version of what she had collected?
21 A    That, plus I read a lot of the other material
22 that she didn't use in making a synopsis.
23 Q    All right.  I was going back to, you were
24 talking about Susan Smith's moral base and her
25 feeling that the suicide would take everybody to

                                                 Page 39

 1 heaven.
 2      And my question was, were you aware that Dr.
 3 Sweet, the counselor, that Susan had told her that
 4 she had concerns that her father may be in hell
 5 because --
 6      THE COURT:  Counsel, I think you need to
 7 rephrase your question.
 8      MR. POPE:  Excuse me.
 9      THE COURT:  If you would like to come over.
10      MR. POPE:  Yes, I understand, Your Honor.
11      THE COURT:  All right.
12 Q    Doctor, were you provided with information from
13 Dr. Sweet in reference to Susan Smith's father?
14 A    Not directly, no.
15 Q    If you were furnished information that she felt
16 that her father would be in hell because of a
17 suicide commission, would that change your view as
18 far as her moral foundation or beliefs?
19 A    I don't believe it would, because I think even
20 the most religious of persons sometimes have their
21 doubts.  And she might have heard something bad
22 about her father and wondered if he had done
23 something which would have gotten him sent to hell.
24 Q    And so the fact that she may have said it
25 wouldn't change it, based on other times she has

                                                 Page 40

 1 told you the opposite, is that correct?
 2 A    I think it's consistent evidence from what
 3 she's told me, plus what she's told other people,
 4 that she has a very powerful belief that good people
 5 go to heaven.
 6 Q    But you also said she didn't consider herself
 7 good, is that correct?
 8 A    Right now she's much more concerned about
 9 whether she would go to heaven or not.
10 Q    Right now she is?
11 A    Right now.
12 Q    You are talking about post?
13 A    Post.
14 Q    Post Michael and Alex?
15 A    Post Michael and Alex.
16 Q    So, prior to this she was not as concerned?
17 A    When I first started to talking to her, she
18 said that and she still believed at that time that
19 she would go to heaven.
20 Q    Doctor, I know I have asked you this.  Your
21 opinion is not that she is insane and didn't know
22 right from wrong?  That's not your opinion, is it?
23 A    I am not saying she's insane.
24 Q    But you understand, and I don't want to play
25 word games with you, but you understand the

                                                 Page 41

 1 requirement in South Carolina for sanity, right?
 2 A    Yes, I do.
 3 Q    That's to know legal or moral right from legal
 4 or moral wrong, to understand that the act is wrong,
 5 legally or morally?  And she knew that, did she not?
 6 A    I'm not sure -- maybe I don't understand the
 7 statute in South Carolina.  I thought it was through
 8 the M'naghten,
 9 Q    It's a variation of M'naghten?
10 A    She did not know the nature and quality of the
11 act and did not know it was wrong.  And I thought
12 the wrong referred to legal wrong in this state.
13 Q    Would it help if I provided a copy?
14 A    Yes, it would help.
15 Q    I'll first show you the section on the sanity.
16 And, of course, you understand that the defense is
17 not contending insanity.  I just want to clarify it
18 for the jury.
19 A    Yes.
20 Q    This is Section 17-24-10.
21 A    Okay.
22 Q    Now, you understand -- and I apologize if I was
23 making it unclear, but you understand the South
24 Carolina standard?
25 A    Okay.

                                                 Page 42

 1 Q    Okay.  And based on that, she is not insane
 2 under our standard based on --
 3 A    That's my testimony, she's not insane.
 4 Q    Okay.  I also show you what --
 5      THE COURT:  Counsel, would you approach the
 6 bench for me, please?
 7      MR. POPE:  Yes, sir.
 8      (lawyers approached the bench)
 9 Q    Doctor, I apologize.  I would try to be more
10 specific with you.
11      The night that you have discussed, and you have
12 elaborated what took place.  And, of course, that's
13 the issue in this trial, is the night of the 25th.
14      Based on your opinion, she's not -- she was not
15 insane that night, is that correct?
16 A    That's correct.
17 Q    Likewise, we also have what's known as the
18 capacity to conform or the guilty but mentally ill.
19 I would show you that statute, 17-24-20.
20 A    I believe she had the capacity to conform her
21 conduct to the requirements of the law.
22 Q    Okay.  And that was on the night of the 25th?
23 A    That's correct.
24 Q    Doctor, in this section that is called capacity
25 or guilty but mentally ill, is that what you

                                                 Page 43

 1 commonly deal with in North Carolina?  Is that the
 2 same type thing?
 3 A    We don't have a guilty but mentally ill statute
 4 in North Carolina.
 5 Q    The capacity to conform, what does that mean?
 6 Could you tell the jury what it means when somebody
 7 has the capacity to conform?  Of course, our statute
 8 says knew right from wrong, but because of some
 9 mental disease or defect you could not conform your
10 conduct, correct?
11 A    I think in this case it refers to ability to
12 refrain from breaking the law.
13 Q    When you say breaking the law or committing a
14 crime, such as the death of her two children?
15 A    That's right.
16 Q    So she did have the capacity to not kill her
17 children, if she chose to do so, is that correct?
18 A    She had sufficient capacity, yes.
19 Q    To make a choice?
20 A    Yes.
21 Q    Thank you.  And doctor, you said that you began
22 explaining to Mr. Bruck that you gathered
23 information from Ms. Andrews and you read the
24 confession, is that correct?
25 A    Yes.

                                                 Page 44

 1 Q    And you also did a number of interviews with
 2 Susan Smith, is that correct?
 3 A    Yes.
 4 Q    You said that you were contacted by Mr. Bruck
 5 on this case in February of '95, is that correct?
 6 A    That's correct.
 7 Q    So each of the times that you talked to Ms.
 8 Smith, and I think you have indicated -- I was
 9 writing pretty quick.  Was it four or five times?
10 A    Four times.
11 Q    And each time that you talked to her --
12 obviously each one of those was post-incident
13 because they are all in '95?
14 A    Yes.
15 Q    Likewise, they were obviously after Mr. Bruck
16 had become involved in the case, is that correct?
17 A    Yes.
18 Q    You gave the jury a brief overview of what was
19 involved in your first interview and all the things
20 that you did.  You reviewed, again, you said either
21 summaries or part of Dr. Andrews notes.  And, of
22 course, some things that you have looked at the
23 actual documents, right?
24 A    That's correct.
25 Q    And then a -- I don't want to characterize it,

                                                 Page 45

 1 a portion or a part of what you did was based on
 2 what Susan Smith had told you, is that correct?
 3 A    That's correct.
 4 Q    You have said that you had observed her and you
 5 listed a number of things again.  And I apologize
 6 for not getting them all, but self view relating to
 7 others, material things, all the things that you
 8 went through.
 9      And I think at that point you were explaining
10 to Mr. Bruck or describing some different things.  I
11 think somehow you got to talking about
12 schizophrenia, or maybe it's hallucinations and --
13 auditory hallucinations, or something of that
14 nature?
15 A    That's right.
16 Q    I just want to make sure I understand.  You are
17 not saying that she had them?  You were using that
18 as an example of saying that's something that she
19 could have lied to you about and didn't, is that
20 correct?
21 A    She could have very easily have lied about it.
22 Q    So she could have lied to you about having
23 auditory hallucinations and you wouldn't have been
24 able to tell the difference?
25 A    I would not have been able to tell the

                                                 Page 46

 1 difference.
 2 Q    But from what you gathered, she doesn't have
 3 any brain damage or any disease of -- any mental
 4 disease of that nature, does she?
 5 A    Well, I think she has a mental disorder.  I
 6 think she has a serious mental disorder.  But she
 7 does not have what we call a psychosis, in which
 8 she's detached from reality and cannot test reality
 9 in which there is a breakdown in all her functioning
10 of thinking and feeling.
11 Q    Okay.  So, again, this disorder is the
12 depressive disorder is that we have discussed?
13 Intermittent --
14 A    That's correct.
15 Q    But that, as you said, doesn't remove her from
16 reality, is that correct?
17 A    No, that's not what I'm saying.
18 Q    I'm sorry, what are you saying?
19 A    I think her contact with reality has always
20 been reasonably good.
21 Q    Okay.
22 A    The only thing I have said that I would
23 question her reality testing is whether for a brief
24 moment or two she blocked out her remembrance of her
25 children being in the car.  And I said I wasn't sure

                                                 Page 47

 1 about that.
 2 Q    And one reason you are not sure is because,
 3 especially as to that time and that incident, all
 4 you have is what she's told you, is that correct?
 5 A    That's correct.  Another reason I'm not sure, I
 6 don't think she is sure.
 7 Q    You don't think she's sure, based on that she's
 8 told you different stories?  She's told you one time
 9 she did and one time she didn't?
10 A    That's right.
11 Q    Doctor, I want to make sure I understand again.
12      Based on your observations, and again the
13 information you looked at that, she has a reasonably
14 good contact with reality, with the one exception of
15 the incident with Michael and Alex as to whether or
16 not they were in the car, is that correct?
17 A    Correct.
18 Q    And on that particular incident you can't say
19 for sure one way or another because she hasn't been
20 able to tell you one way or another?
21 A    That's correct.  Let me also add that her
22 thinking is not always the most rational.  Then I
23 think sometimes she thinks things out poorly and her
24 judgment is often poor.  But I don't mean to imply
25 by that that she is psychotic, in that she's lost

                                                 Page 48

 1 contact with reality.
 2 Q    In other words, rolling your children down the
 3 ramp is not the best decision?
 4 A    Just going to the ramp is not the best
 5 decision.
 6 Q    And the acts that following it are not the best
 7 decision?
 8 A    Certainly not.
 9 Q    Or we wouldn't be here?
10 A    Just driving along the kids that way was poor
11 judgement.
12 Q    But poor judgment, nonetheless, she still made
13 decisions to do what she did, is that correct?
14 A    Yes.
15 Q    Okay.  Doctor, again I want to make sure I
16 hadn't written the wrong things down, but I
17 understand that you are talking about the
18 intermittent depression.  But as far as the
19 hallucinations -- and I think one time you mentioned
20 like the out-of-body experience.  What do you call
21 that when --
22 A    Dissociation.
23 Q    Dissociation.  There is no indication that
24 Susan Smith of anything -- of the major psychosis or
25 anything of that nature?

                                                 Page 49

 1 A    No --
 2 Q    Like --
 3 A    -- she would not qualify for diagnosis of
 4 psychosis or of dissociate disorder.
 5 Q    Doctor, you said when you first saw the case,
 6 like a number of people did on television the first
 7 time, is that right?
 8 A    That's correct.
 9 Q    And you saw her pleas, you know, for her
10 children to be brought back, and, of course, the
11 relation of the incident, you know, that we have
12 heard about so many times, you saw that?
13 A    I saw that.
14 Q    Did you make a judgment then as to her veracity
15 or her telling the truth when you saw her on TV?
16 A    No, I didn't.  I was confused by the whole
17 thing.  And I would not try to judge somebody's
18 veracity over a television.  I couldn't tell.
19 Q    Doctor, I think you said one time -- and you
20 were describing again what you had done to try to
21 put stock in the evaluation, you know, put stock
22 that she was being truthful.  And one of the things
23 we have just gone through is all the things that she
24 could have told you?
25 A    Uh-huh.

                                                 Page 50

 1 Q    But didn't?
 2 A    Uh-huh.
 3 Q    So, in other words, she had opportunities to
 4 deceive you, as you perceived, to deceive you with
 5 greater diagnosis, but never came up with doing
 6 anything like that, is that correct?
 7 A    Really at no time did she exaggerate any
 8 symptoms that might have ended up helping her be
 9 excused.
10 Q    But you don't disagree at the same time she
11 came up with a story about a black man and the
12 toboggan to try to help her be excused from the
13 crime?
14 A    I have to assume she was lying then and was not
15 lying with me.
16 Q    And you said you just assumed that based on
17 your dealing with her?
18 A    That's what I believe.
19 Q    Doctor, you had talked about the way that you
20 as a doctor and you teach your students to approach
21 suicide such that -- and I want you to describe it
22 from a medicals perspective there is no suicidal
23 gesture or suicidal threat, for lack of a better
24 word, is that correct?
25 A    Well, I have a lot of problems with the word

                                                 Page 51

 1 gesture.  There is such a thing as threat,
 2 certainly.
 3 Q    Can you tell the jury what you mean in your
 4 terms what you mean by suicidal threat and suicidal
 5 gesture, what you mean?
 6 A    Gesture is almost a pejorative term.  It's used
 7 in rather respect to criticize and say they didn't
 8 really mean it.  And it's often used as a way to put
 9 the person down and to demean seriousness of their
10 suffering.  I try to discourage the use of that word
11 among my students.
12 Q    I guess, doctor, too, in your profession, if
13 you were to take lightly and guess wrong, you know,
14 if you taught your students to say, well, you know,
15 not to take it seriously, and that could put the
16 patient in jeopardy, is that correct?
17 A    That's certainly true.
18 Q    Doctor, you would agree with me that certainly
19 in your years of experience you have seen a number
20 of situations in which people threaten suicide?  Not
21 using the word gesture, but threaten suicide or
22 emulate suicide from some means other than actually
23 taking their life?
24 A    Oh, yes.  Could I elaborate a little bit on
25 that?

                                                 Page 52

 1 Q    Yes, sir.
 2 A    Okay.  I think most people - or many people, at
 3 least - that sometimes in their life think they
 4 would be better off dead.
 5      I think there is another population of people,
 6 not as large, who at sometime in their life think
 7 they might want to take their life.
 8      There is another population of people who
 9 sometimes in their lives might say to others I'm
10 going to take my life, but don't mean it.
11      Then there are people who reach the point where
12 they intend to take their lives.
13      And then there are people who reach the point
14 where they plan to take their lives.
15      And at each of those levels it gets more
16 serious.
17      The problem I have with people not taking
18 Susan's depression at age thirteen more seriously is
19 that adolescents often skip all those intervening
20 steps.  They get to thinking they would be better
21 off dead and without going through all of those
22 other steps, they are ready to kill themselves, and
23 sometimes do, because adolescents are very
24 unpredictable and very volatile.
25      So I would have taken what Susan Smith was

                                                 Page 53

 1 saying at age thirteen and doing very as serious
 2 signs of sickness.
 3 Q    And, of course, what she was saying and doing
 4 at age thirteen, you are aware that there were
 5 counselors at school and teachers and various people
 6 that tried to assist her?
 7 A    Yes, I think they tried very hard.
 8 Q    And I think it would be fair that any child at
 9 the age thirteen that talks about suicide,
10 regardless of where ultimately they intend it or
11 not, you should take it seriously, is that correct?
12 A    Very seriously.
13 Q    Yes, sir.  And that would be true whether
14 ultimately it comes to pass that they intended it or
15 not?  You would still want to take it seriously?
16 A    That's correct.
17 Q    And from what you could tell, on this
18 particular incidents, the people that were
19 available, as far as teachers and all that, would --
20 whether Susan Smith actually meant it or not, they
21 were there to provide assistance, is that correct?
22 A    They took her seriously, and some of them did
23 try to provide assistance.
24 Q    Doctor, you had mentioned several times the
25 need for -- I want to say attention.  I don't think

                                                 Page 54

 1 that's the word that you used, but the need to be
 2 around people and to need to get feedback or -- you
 3 know, you talked about having the radio, or having
 4 somebody to talk to.  What was the term that you
 5 used for that?  Is it attention, or --
 6 A    No, it's fear of aloneness.
 7 Q    Fear of being -- you said fear of being alone?
 8 A    Fear of being alone.
 9 Q    And so that need would be fulfilled, as it was
10 with the teachers when they provided attention to
11 her, is that correct?
12 A    That's correct.
13 Q    Now, doctor, you had indicated that based on
14 Dr. Andrews chart that you came up with kind of a
15 mathematical calculation of a threefold increase in
16 the chances for depression, is that right?
17 A    That's just a term that is thrown around in
18 textbooks.
19 Q    The threefold aspects?
20 A    Yes.
21 Q    So it's not really mathematically --
22 A    No.
23 Q    -- that they are threefold?
24 A    No, it's not my mathematics.  Someone else did
25 it.

                                                 Page 55

 1 Q    And so the fact that -- you were here when I
 2 talked to Ms. Andrews yesterday, is that right?
 3 A    Yes.
 4 Q    And you know we had the discussion about -- and
 5 I respect how you treat suicidal attempts, or -- I
 6 don't want to say gestures again, but threats, or
 7 whatever the case may be, that you treat them all
 8 seriously.
 9      But, again, whether they were taking place or
10 not would be a factor to be considered in the
11 ultimate evaluation, is that correct?
12 A    I'm sorry, I didn't understand that question.
13 Could you repeat it?
14 Q    I'm not sure I did either.  Let me try again.
15      My question is this.  You know, we tried to --
16 and I realize you said it's textbook, but we tried
17 to put some mathematics on the increased likelihood
18 for Susan Smith being down here in this equation to
19 have more suicidal tendencies?
20 A    Uh-huh, that's correct.
21 Q    And certainly that's something that you relied
22 on when you balance her credibility and what you
23 believe and her story, is that correct?
24 A    If I had nothing else but this chart to go on,
25 and if I just met Susan Smith, I would say to myself

                                                 Page 56

 1 this is a person who has a high probability of being
 2 depressed.
 3 Q    Just in talking to her?
 4 A    Without even talking to her.  Just looking at
 5 the chart.
 6 Q    Okay.
 7 A    I would immediately know whether she was a
 8 person who was likely to be depressed.
 9 Q    So you went in talking to her based on this,
10 thinking that I'm probably going to see some
11 depression, is that a fair statement?
12 A    Probable is a strong word.  I should say I
13 would not be surprised if she was depressed.
14 Q    It would not surprise you?
15 A    Yes.
16 Q    And then again I would say to the extent which
17 this is misleading or faulty, certainly your
18 impressions going in could be misleading or faulty,
19 is that correct?
20 A    That's correct.
21 Q    And, doctor, you talked and we have indicated
22 at least four times at length with Susan Smith and
23 took information from various sources to paint the
24 picture of her past.
25      And what I would like to do now is just touch

                                                 Page 57

 1 briefly through the things that you have indicated,
 2 and I'll try to be brief with you.
 3      You basically started back with her brother's
 4 problem.  That was her brother Michael, was having
 5 some effect on her situation?
 6 A    I don't know what effect that had.  Actually
 7 what the information that her brother's problems
 8 revealed was all the work that was done with Harry
 9 and Linda, which gives us some objectivity as to
10 what was going on with the family at that time.
11 Q    I see.  So it's not as much -- even though
12 certainly the situation with Michael is something to
13 be considered, what that provided also is a picture
14 of the family at that time?
15 A    That's right.  And certainly Michael's illness
16 must have had some effect on Susan, but I have no
17 idea what it was.
18 Q    I want to ask you as far as this chart, Scotty,
19 who is indicated here with a white square, he's a
20 blood relative to Susan?  That is her brother, is
21 that correct?
22 A    That's right.
23 Q    And he had the same mother and father?
24 A    That's right.
25 Q    Doctor, you talked about that, and I think that

                                                 Page 58

 1 gave you the opportunity to -- when I say that, I'm
 2 talking the incident at York Place, gave you the
 3 opportunity to delve in behind the scenes with the
 4 family relationship a little bit.
 5      And you discussed the death of her father that
 6 would have led up after the York Place information
 7 that you gathered.  And you said talking to people
 8 you have determined from various sources or from
 9 Susan that Susan was the apple of Harry's eye, her
10 father's eye, is that correct?
11 A    That's correct.
12 Q    Doctor, as part of the information that Mrs.
13 Andrews related yesterday, she related that the
14 Spartanburg Regional Medical Center, which would
15 have been the information from the eighteen year old
16 suicide attempt, the Aspirin attempt that you have
17 discussed?
18 A    Well, that was in Dr. Andrews summary, but I
19 also read very carefully the hospital summary on my
20 own.
21 Q    And particularly in relation to the information
22 about Susan being the apple of her father's eye and
23 that being related, could you tell me what this
24 background information she gave indicates?  And the
25 patient being --

                                                 Page 59

 1 A    This is a social history from Spartanburg
 2 Regional Medical Center.
 3 Q    Yes, sir.
 4 A    "Patients father's name was Harry Vaughn.  He's
 5 deceased.  The patient stated that her father killed
 6 himself when she was six years old.  Patient stated
 7 that she and her father were not close."
 8 Q    Thank you, sir.  Now, did Susan Smith indicate
 9 to you during your conversations that she was close
10 to her father?
11 A    Susan Smith indicated to me that she was told
12 she was very close to her father, but she personally
13 has very little recollection of her father.
14 Q    So she has little recollection at all of her
15 father?
16 A    That's correct.
17 Q    I think you related to the jury the incident
18 concerning Susan's father, and that after that
19 happened that he in fact called 911?
20 A    That's right.
21 Q    And I presume when he called -- he called 911
22 for help?
23 A    That's right.
24 Q    And when he called 911, he related what had
25 happened to him and he needed assistance?  Not that

                                                 Page 60

 1 someone had attacked him, or anything of that
 2 nature, is that right?
 3 A    No, he related what happened to him.
 4 Q    Now, you have said that the next significant
 5 event would have been when Linda and Bev got
 6 married, is that correct?
 7 A    When Linda and Bev got married, yes.
 8 Q    And did Susan relate to you that she was
 9 resentful that Linda had married Bev without having
10 her involved in it?
11 A    I don't recall her ever telling me that.  She
12 certainly described things as changing after that.
13 Q    Changing, I think you said as far as a
14 different lifestyle?  You said more affluent
15 lifestyle?
16 A    More affluent, but also more strict.
17 Q    Strict is -- I think you indicated you said
18 rules, more rules --
19 A    Rules.
20 Q    -- for her.
21      Now, you said at age seventeen -- I'm sorry, at
22 age thirteen that she was -- that's when she wrote
23 the note to the counselor, the thirteen year old
24 attempt --
25 A    Yes, that's right.

                                                 Page 61

 1 Q    -- that we discussed.  And the information that
 2 you have was that she was taking too much Aspirin?
 3 And again I realize this falls back into the real
 4 attempt.  To you the issue is not whether she
 5 attempted, but in essence she was crying out for
 6 help?
 7 A    I think the counselor who earlier today said
 8 this was a cry for help put it very well.
 9 Q    So, again, in that regard from a psychological
10 support standpoint, the issue is not so much whether
11 she actually took them or not?  It's whether she was
12 saying that she was doing it, as far as counsel
13 reaction, is that correct?
14 A    I believe that is, yes.
15 Q    The next significant event I had that you had
16 indicated was the situation with her stepfather.
17 And did you review all the information on that
18 concerning how that began and what the actual
19 incident was?
20 A    Yes.
21 Q    Now, I want you to understand that, just as you
22 said, you hold him responsible.  Any question that I
23 ask, I'm not condoning the actions of her
24 stepfather.  Do you understand that?
25 A    I understand that.

                                                 Page 62

 1 Q    Okay.  So you said she blames herself.  Why was
 2 it she blamed herself?
 3 A    Well, she did very little to stop it.
 4 Q    In fact, the first incident when it began,
 5 isn't it true that she was almost, I think you said,
 6 fifteen years, eleven months, is that correct?
 7 A    Right.
 8 Q    And that she crawled into his lap to sleep?
 9 A    Apparently it was common for the children to do
10 that, being Bev was an affectionate person with his
11 daughters as well as with Susan.
12 Q    Did she indicate to you that she pretended to
13 be asleep to see what he would do?
14 A    She gave history to others.  And she also
15 indicated to me that at times when this happened she
16 would pretend to be asleep.
17 Q    Doctor, you had said again, and I understand
18 that the burden in a situation like that is on the
19 adult, was on Bev Russell, not on Susan Smith, in
20 that situation.
21      If she was an adult, and what -- when you say
22 adult, what do you determine an adult?  She was
23 almost sixteen then.  When do you think she would
24 have been responsible for her actions in that
25 regard?

                                                 Page 63

 1 A    Well, for most people it would be eighteen.
 2 Q    Are you aware that in South Carolina at sixteen
 3 is the age of consent?
 4 A    Is the age of consent.  I didn't know that.
 5 Q    Okay.
 6 A    But what we are talking about though is an
 7 issue of disparity, of power status between two
 8 people.  And the age differences and the power
 9 differences, particularly with him being her
10 stepfather, are so enormous.
11 Q    So it's more --
12 A    Again, I would put the burden of responsibility
13 on him and not on Susan.
14 Q    So you say it's more of a power thing than an
15 age thing, the fact that he's kind of head of the
16 household and she was under him?
17 A    Yes.
18 Q    So once -- so her changing of age really
19 wouldn't mean that much in that view of things,
20 whether -- I think you said this had continued up
21 until September of '94, is that correct?
22 A    That's correct.
23 Q    Okay.
24 A    Sometime in the summer of '94.  I don't know
25 when it actually happened.

                                                 Page 64

 1 Q    And those actions with her stepfather -- of
 2 course, that was after she had moved out on her own
 3 and living on Toney Road, through some parts of that
 4 episode, is that correct?
 5 A    I can't place Toney Road with an exact time,
 6 but it was during one of those separations from
 7 David.
 8 Q    I guess what I'm saying, at this point she was
 9 a grown woman with children and living on her own?
10 A    That's right.
11 Q    And, doctor, I think -- I apologize if I'm
12 going through this again.  Mr. Bruck had asked you
13 on direct, and you had reviewed the notes I showed
14 you from Spartanburg hospital.  You were aware that
15 she had called it an affair, and that she felt a
16 mutual affection for Bev Russell, is that correct?
17 A    Yes.
18 Q    And that at one point she indicated -- that
19 when they had gone to counseling, that she was
20 jealous of her mother for getting Bev's attention?
21 A    Yes.
22 Q    So that Bev's attention or other men's
23 attention meant a lot to her or means a lot to her,
24 is that correct?
25 A    I think that's mostly what it was about with

                                                 Page 65

 1 Susan Smith.  I think mostly she was interested in
 2 the attention and the affection.  And in many ways
 3 what happened with Bev probably sensitized her to
 4 seek out older men subsequently as the source of
 5 affection.
 6 Q    And she, no doubt from what you are saying, has
 7 a history of seeking out older men, is that correct?
 8 A    Yes, she does.
 9 Q    Doctor, you also reviewed -- and, again, I keep
10 referring to the Spartanburg Medical Center report?
11 If need be, I'll hand it back up to you.
12 A    Yes.
13 Q    That was the incident with the Aspirin, and I
14 think you had talked about Tylenol too?
15 A    That's correct.
16 Q    And, of course, you said that you didn't want
17 to get too far -- because you are not an expert in
18 toxicology analysis, or whatever, but basically it
19 appeared that the Aspirin levels were normal levels,
20 but the --
21 A    The therapeutic levels indicated she was taking
22 Aspirin, but they were not out of the therapeutic
23 range.
24 Q    Okay.  And the Tylenol levels were high, is
25 that correct?

                                                 Page 66

 1 A    That's correct.
 2 Q    I think you said borderline toxic level?
 3 A    Borderline, but not enough so they would worry
 4 about liver damage.
 5 Q    Doctor, are you aware that when she was at the
 6 hospital, that they had given her Tylenol at the
 7 hospital?
 8 A    They gave it to her later on.
 9 Q    Okay.
10 A    And I remember it very well, because I think
11 both Bev and Linda were concerned about giving her
12 Tylenol.
13 Q    And, of course, she said later on -- you
14 certainly said too, that there is some question as
15 to when the blood was drawn for the medical tests
16 also?
17 A    That's correct.
18 Q    And in discussing that event, you had said
19 that, as I understand, it was precipitated by an
20 affair she had with an older man, and then she went
21 with a one night stand with another assistant
22 manager, is that correct?
23 A    The affair was with a forty year old man.  The
24 one night event was with a thirty year old man.
25 Q    And then I believe she went back and discussed

                                                 Page 67

 1 the affair with the -- or the one night stand with
 2 the thirty year old man back with the forty year old
 3 man, is that correct?
 4 A    That's right.
 5 Q    And, doctor, you had said in reviewing that
 6 that you were not clear as to whether once she had
 7 taken the Aspirin or -- that particular evening,
 8 whether she had gone to the thirty year old man's
 9 residence or not?
10 A    The notes that I read indicated there was a
11 question mark whether she went there or not.  Those
12 are probably not the hospital notes.  I think those
13 are just Dr. Andrews notes.
14 Q    I understand.  So if I said that she went to
15 the thirty year old man and told him that she had
16 taken Aspirin to commit suicide, you wouldn't
17 dispute that, or you just don't know?
18 A    It was in Dr. Andrews notes with the question
19 mark after it.
20 Q    I'm sorry, sir?
21 A    It was in Dr. Andrews notes with a question
22 mark after it.
23 Q    Okay.
24 A    Or some statement to the effect of -- or did
25 she, something like that.

                                                 Page 68

 1 Q    I apologize for not having this highlighted.  I
 2 know this is a little rough on the eyes.  Let me see
 3 if I can indicate it.
 4 A    Do you want me to read that?
 5 Q    Yes, sir, if you would, please.
 6 A    "The patient stated that at that point she then
 7 went to work and went to the assistant manager's
 8 house."  That is the thirty year old man.
 9 Q    Thank you.  And this was in the context of her
10 taking the Aspirin, is that correct?
11 A    That's right.
12 Q    So, again, doctor, this is consistent with what
13 you said about her need for attention and that she's
14 needs to be with somebody as much as possible, is
15 that correct?
16 A    I don't really know why she went to see the man
17 at that time.  I suppose it could be consistent with
18 her need to be around people.
19 Q    Now, doctor, I think at that point, both that
20 point and the onset of the Bev Russell incident, she
21 was referred to Dr. Heatherly, is that correct?
22 A    That's correct.
23 Q    And you have reviewed his information also?
24 A    Yes, I have.
25 Q    And if I'm not mistaken, doctor, the diagnosis

                                                 Page 69

 1 at that time was an adjustment disorder with
 2 depressed mood?  Does that sound correct to you?
 3 A    That's correct.
 4 Q    What is an adjustment disorder?  What does that
 5 mean?
 6 A    Adjustment disorder is a response to a
 7 particular stress which leads to some disturbance,
 8 like depression or anxiety, which is usually
 9 believed to be easily treated and temporary.
10 Q    An adjustment disorder -- when you say a
11 stress, a stresser, such as losing your job, or
12 getting a bad grade, or whatever the case may be,
13 that these people, in essence, overreact, or react
14 greater to it, is that correct?
15 A    They have a reaction which, for lack of a
16 better word, is psychiatric or pathological and then
17 develop symptoms of something.  And usually it's
18 assumed that symptoms will not last more than six
19 months.
20 Q    And that was the diagnosis that he made back
21 then of the adjustment disorder?
22 A    That's correct.
23 Q    Now, as I understand it, you said earlier you
24 are not second-guessing the people that were
25 actually there, but looking back on it now, you say

                                                 Page 70

 1 that was depression, is that correct?
 2 A    Looking back at it now, I would say that was a
 3 manifestation of depression.
 4 Q    Again, doctor I think you made clear, though,
 5 that you weren't able to deal hands on with her
 6 obviously at that particular time?
 7 A    No, I would not second-guess Dr. Heatherly.
 8 Q    Likewise, doctor, the large amount of the
 9 additional information that you have begins
10 post-death of Michael and Alex?  You gained
11 information through interviews with Susan Smith
12 after the boys were killed, is that correct?
13 A    That's correct.
14 Q    Going back to Dr. Heatherly, you had stated
15 before that you thought that he gave the correct
16 treatment without medicine at that time, based on
17 looking back at it with the situational aspect of
18 two lovers?
19 A    Given what he knew, he gave the right
20 treatments.  I think given what we know now, it may
21 not have been the right treatment.
22 Q    And what you know now, again, is what Dr.
23 Andrews has gathered and what you gathered from
24 Susan Smith, is that correct?
25 A    That's correct.

                                                 Page 71

 1 Q    Doctor, at one point you said that Susan Smith
 2 is not an easy read.  Would that be true in dealing
 3 with her one on one, as you have done, and you are
 4 saying that it's difficult to tell what she's
 5 actually meaning or saying?  Is that what you mean?
 6 A    No.  What I mean, it's very hard to get her to
 7 remember things.  It's very hard to get her to say
 8 negative things which reflects on her family or
 9 others.
10      Each interview I had with her, I learned
11 something new, which could have been easy for her to
12 tell me at the beginning, I would have thought.  And
13 even though I spent about thirteen or fourteen hours
14 with her, I really wish I had had time for another
15 fifty, because I think there are many more things
16 that I could have learned.
17 Q    So when you say that, you are saying she is not
18 an easy read as far as your evaluation?  She's not
19 necessarily forthcoming with everything every time
20 that you talk to her?
21 A    I think she tries, but she's so concerned with
22 the other person, and they would have pleasant
23 interaction with the other person, that it gets in
24 the way of her facing the seriousness of the
25 situation and revealing herself, as many others

                                                 Page 72

 1 would.
 2 Q    I think you had said that she has an incredible
 3 need to please, and that's in the same context you
 4 are talking here?
 5 A    That's in the same context.
 6 Q    So she -- and I'm not saying falsifying, but
 7 when she's telling you what you want to hear, she's
 8 wanting to talk about you, and you said make
 9 conversation with you rather than talk about the
10 things --
11 A    She does that in ways that are inappropriate,
12 to do.
13 Q    I'm sorry, that are?
14 A    She does that in ways that are inappropriate to
15 do.
16 Q    You said inappropriate?
17 A    Yes.
18 Q    Would her need to please or to please others,
19 as you have said, would that be something that just
20 manifests itself in a psychological setting, like
21 you were dealing with, or is that just basically her
22 personality, that she would go out of her way to
23 please other people?
24 A    I think it's her personality.  And most of the
25 time it serves her well.  She is a nice person.  And

                                                 Page 73

 1 I think in most context everybody sees her as a nice
 2 person.
 3      It gets her into trouble when she does things
 4 to please that really are not consistent with what
 5 she wants to do.  Much of her sexual activity is not
 6 for her own satisfaction, but it's simply concerned
 7 with pleasing others so they will like her.
 8 Q    And so the pleasing others so that -- many of
 9 the things that she does, or at least her thought
10 process, is to do things to please other individuals
11 besides herself?
12 A    That's right.
13      THE COURT:  Counsel, how much longer do you
14 think you might be?
15      MR. POPE:  Your Honor, we could probably take a
16 break and then I could probably finish up when we
17 come back.
18      THE COURT:  All right.
19                     *  *  *  *  *
20      (jury out of the courtroom)
21                     *  *  *  *  *
22      (off the record)
23      (back on the record)
24      (jury in the courtroom)
25 

                                                 Page 74

 1 CONT'D CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. POPE:
 2 Q    Dr. Halleck, I believe when we took a break
 3 that we were discussing your assessment.  You had
 4 said that -- we had talked somewhat extensively
 5 about Susan's need to please other people.  And you
 6 had said that even to the point that it often gets
 7 her into trouble?
 8 Q    Is that correct?
 9 A    Yes.
10 Q    And, again, following through now on the
11 chronology of the different events that you named, I
12 think the next one that had you indicated was her
13 involvement with David Smith and having children and
14 all of that, is that correct?
15 A    Yes.
16 Q    You said the first problem in the marriage was
17 Susan becoming less interested in sex, is that
18 correct?
19 A    Yes.
20 Q    And you had indicated, I believe, that she
21 began to have a suspicion about him and other woman?
22 This is what Susan related to you in your
23 interviews, right?
24 A    That's right.
25 Q    Do you recall - and I may be able to dig up the

                                                 Page 75

 1 information if you don't - the first time that they
 2 physically separated?  Do you recall when that was?
 3 A    I think it was when Michael was five months old
 4 but I'm not sure about that.
 5 Q    That would be about March of --
 6 A    I wouldn't know the dates.
 7 Q    Do you recall where they were residing at that
 8 time, if they were residing at David's
 9 great-grandmother's?
10 A    I think they were still there.  I think they
11 were still there.  I'm not sure.
12 Q    And the first time that she moved out -- I
13 mean, the first time that they were separated, she
14 in fact moved back to her parents' house?
15 A    That's correct.
16 Q    Did your information indicate to you that when
17 she moved out that first time in March, that she had
18 a relationship with another man?
19 A    That was not my information.
20 Q    And, again, when we talked about that that's
21 not your information, she didn't indicate that to
22 you, is that correct?
23 A    She indicated to me that David started cheating
24 on her long before she had any affairs with anyone
25 else.  And I think that date she mentioned when she

                                                 Page 76

 1 started to get involved with other men was in 1993.
 2 Q    So David had begun affairs much previous to
 3 what she had, is that correct?
 4 A    Previous.  I mean --
 5 Q    I'll eliminate the month.
 6 A    I'm not really sure of the time sequence in
 7 either sense.
 8 Q    She's not sure.
 9      You had indicated that -- did she indicate to
10 you she had a relationship during that time with the
11 same individual that has been previously designated
12 as the thirty year old man from her previous suicide
13 attempt?
14 A    During the time she was married to David?
15 Q    Yes.
16 A    When she was living with him?
17 Q    No, sir.
18 A    No, she had not told me that.
19 Q    She did not tell you that?
20 A    No.
21 Q    You had indicated that the -- was it your
22 understanding that during their marriage they spent
23 a good deal of time together and apart together and
24 apart, is that correct?
25 A    That's right.

                                                 Page 77

 1 Q    And you had talked about it one time David had
 2 left I think three weeks after Alex was born, is
 3 that correct?
 4 A    That's right.
 5 Q    Did she indicate to you whether or not he was
 6 in fact present there when Alex was born?
 7 A    I believe he was.
 8 Q    And she indicated to you that David continued
 9 to support the children, is that correct,
10 financially?
11 A    That's right.
12 Q    Okay.  And he also came and took care of the
13 children and had them various times, is that
14 correct?
15 A    That's right.
16 Q    You indicate that during this time she had a
17 strong support network?
18 A    Yes.
19 Q    That consisted of family and friends as far as
20 people to support and taking care of kids, is that
21 correct?
22 A    That's right.
23 Q    And, likewise, you have indicated David would
24 take care of kids also?
25 A    Yes, he did.

                                                 Page 78

 1 Q    You had indicated that the information she had
 2 filed for divorce and she and David had some
 3 disputes about the grounds of divorce, that -- I
 4 think the way you put it, that she had said she had
 5 some information about David and adultery?
 6 A    That's right.
 7 Q    Are you aware that when the divorce was
 8 ultimately filed, that it was in fact she that was
 9 charged with adultery?
10 A    You mean was this filed after the death of the
11 children?
12 Q    Yes.
13 A    I was not aware of that.
14 Q    Now, doctor, you have recounted basically --
15 Mr. Bruck asked you to tell about the time leading
16 up to Michael and Alex's death, and you began in
17 August of 1994?
18 A    Yes.
19 Q    And you said at that point Susan Smith was
20 having sexual relationships with Bev Russell, Cary
21 Findlay, and Tom Findlay, is that correct?
22 A    That's right.
23 Q    As well as with David Smith?
24 A    Yeah, I'm not sure about the exact time
25 sequences, but within around that time, yes, it was

                                                 Page 79

 1 four different men.
 2 Q    And you said during this time her fear of being
 3 alone -- and we have called it several different
 4 things.  But the fear of being alone was becoming
 5 more prevalent, is that correct?  Or that was just a
 6 constant symptom she had?
 7 A    The fear of it happening was becoming more
 8 prevalent.
 9 Q    Okay.
10 A    Particularly related to the divorce.
11 Q    Now, going back to the divorce proceedings.
12 The actual proceedings, the actual filing of the
13 divorce, she precipitated that, is that correct?
14 A    Yes, she did.
15 Q    Doctor, you said she began to drink more?
16 A    Reading through the files there were two or
17 three situations in which she apparently got drunk
18 in that last month.  And that was -- I'm not saying
19 that she developed a substance abuse disorder or
20 substance abuse problem, but it was uncharacteristic
21 of Susan to drink that much.
22 Q    And again you say uncharacteristic.  Is that
23 based on what she represented to you?
24 A    Well, what's in the history and also what she
25 represented to me.

                                                 Page 80

 1 Q    Okay.
 2 A    There was one occasion in which she drove home
 3 while intoxicated.  That was generally fairly
 4 serious.
 5 Q    Do you know where she drove home?
 6 A    I think from some Tom Findlay's house.
 7 Q    I'm sorry, doctor, I'm not sure.  We are
 8 talking about now August through October.  You said
 9 there was two or three times -- did you say during
10 that month, or during that period of time?
11 A    I think it was during October.
12 Q    Doctor, you have indicated to us the type of
13 depression was such that was not sporadic -- the
14 word not sporadic.  What was the word?
15 Intermittent?
16 A    Intermittent.
17 Q    And you said this was such that the particular
18 depression that she's relating to you in the sense
19 that she related would be such that she would not be
20 depressed when her loneliness was satisfied.  Is
21 that what you said?
22 A    When she felt that it was satisfied and when
23 she felt good about the prospects for continuing to
24 be satisfied.
25 Q    And you said, therefore, because -- if her

                                                 Page 81

 1 loneliness is satisfied -- it's kind of a catch 22,
 2 because when it's satisfied when she's around
 3 people, then the fact that she's got depression no
 4 one would ever see it, is that correct?
 5 A    Well, she is going to feel better around people
 6 and it would be less likely that people would see
 7 it.  That's probably correct.
 8 Q    So based on your definition then -- and I think
 9 you had indicated that she's not depressed all the
10 time, but she would be depressed when she is alone?
11 A    She's more likely to be depressed when she's
12 alone.
13 Q    So, in other words, every time she is alone,
14 she's not automatically depressed, is that correct?
15 That just heightens the likelihood of her being
16 depressed?
17 A    It heightens the likelihood, but she gets
18 pretty consistently anxious and depressed to be
19 alone.
20 Q    She's anxious and depressed when she's alone.
21 And, of course, by the very nature of that
22 statement, that can only be related by her telling
23 you, is that correct?
24 A    Yes, of course.  Although I should say that her
25 mother confirms that she's been this way since

                                                 Page 82

 1 childhood.
 2 Q    Her mother confirms that she's depressed when
 3 she's alone?
 4 A    Yes, that she's caught her alone and when she
 5 is alone, she's often sad and anxious when she
 6 appears to be alone.
 7 Q    When did her mother -- her mother related this
 8 to you after Michael and Alex were killed?
 9 A    Yes.
10 Q    Doctor, you had -- I can't remember if Mr.
11 Bruck had testified this, or you had, that based on
12 the intermittent display that she would -- any time
13 that we could bring people to show her as being
14 normal or being interactive or being happy, be it at
15 work, or the community, or at the class at the
16 university, that that doesn't change the diagnosis,
17 because it only happens when she's not around
18 people, is that correct?
19 A    Well, there are times when she shows her
20 sadness to people.  Of course, she can't control it.
21 Q    So there is times when she's been sad around
22 people?
23 A    Yes.
24 Q    And, again, there is no evidence to indicate
25 that there aren't plenty of times when she's alone

                                                 Page 83

 1 that she's not sad?
 2 A    It's possible that that happens, but that's not
 3 the way she described it.
 4 Q    Now, her need to interact with people.  You
 5 said sometimes it could be replaced with the radio
 6 in the car, or -- you know, that wouldn't truly
 7 replace interacting with people, but that would give
 8 you something, is that correct?
 9 A    It's a poor substitute.
10 Q    Or the television, is that correct?
11 A    Again, it's a poor substitute.
12 Q    Okay.  Were the children also a poor substitute
13 for interaction with people?
14 A    No.
15 Q    So interaction with the children would fulfill
16 that need that she had, is that correct?
17 A    Yes.
18 Q    Okay.  And then going down now to the Friday
19 before the boys were killed, you said that her
20 husband David had come over and he had cleaned the
21 carpet, and they had had sex, and he was friendly
22 and everything was fine in that regard, is that
23 correct?
24 A    Not after they had sex.
25 Q    I'm sorry, when he got there and prior to

                                                 Page 84

 1 having sex, everything was fine?  Sometime after
 2 having sex, they got into an argument, is that
 3 correct?
 4 A    I think it was stronger than that, as I heard
 5 that David precipitated an argument.
 6 Q    David precipitated an argument?
 7 A    Yes.
 8 Q    And who related that to you?
 9 A    Actually it was related both by Susan Smith and
10 by the notes of Dr. Andrews.
11 Q    Do you know what basis she formed those notes?
12 I mean, certainly at this particular time you are
13 talking about the only person there is Susan and
14 David?
15 A    That may have been with her conversation with
16 Susan.
17 Q    Okay.  And they had a discussion about Tom
18 Findlay and someone else, and you said Susan
19 indicated it was Cary Findlay?
20 A    Yes.
21 Q    Doctor, based on your investigation, you are
22 aware -- and I may be getting ahead of myself, but
23 you are aware of the discussions you have related as
24 far as with Tom Findlay and what Susan indicated
25 concerning his father Cary Findlay to Tom?

                                                 Page 85

 1 A    On the 25th?
 2 Q    Yes.
 3 A    Yes.
 4 Q    And so you are also aware that then she said it
 5 didn't happen, is that correct?
 6 A    Yes, I'm aware of that.
 7 Q    But on the Friday prior to Michael and Alex's
 8 death, she was telling David that she had had a
 9 relationship with Mr. Findlay, is that correct?
10 A    That's correct.
11 Q    Doctor, I had noted that at that time in that
12 discussion the Friday you had said she was feeling
13 bad and drinking a lot.  Was she particularly
14 drinking a lot that Friday, or was that kind of back
15 in context with the whole time period we are talking
16 about?
17 A    I don't think I said she was drinking a lot on
18 Friday.  I think it was over this time period.
19 Q    And so Sunday she revealed to Tom Findlay
20 concerning Bev Russell, is that correct?
21 A    Right.
22 Q    She said Monday was uneventful.  This would
23 have been the Monday before Michael and Alex were
24 killed, is that correct?  Monday, the 24th?
25 A    The only major thing that I recall about that

                                                 Page 86

 1 day was that David that evening tried to have sex
 2 with her.
 3 Q    And, again, doctor, I think you made it
 4 absolutely clear.  When you say you recall, you
 5 recall what's been related to you by Susan Smith?
 6 A    That's correct.
 7 Q    And so the only thing that was related
 8 concerning any depression, her mental state, was
 9 David coming by and trying to have sex and her
10 refusing him, is that correct?
11 A    That's right.  Although it was clear from our
12 discussion that she continued to be very distraught
13 and frantic about what was going on in her life.
14 Q    Okay.  On that particular day did she indicate
15 that she had an uneventful day at work, as far as
16 being happy and relating to co-workers and all that?
17 A    I don't recall any major events of the day.  I
18 doubt if she was happy that day.
19 Q    You say you doubt if she was happy?
20 A    Yes.
21 Q    Of course, you are asserting your doubt based
22 on the informaion that you have gathered?
23 A    That's correct.
24 Q    And did she relate to you the time they spent
25 at Hickory Nuts that Monday night with Tom Findlay

                                                 Page 87

 1 watching Melrose Place?
 2 A    Yes.
 3 Q    Okay.  And did she indicate that she was
 4 unhappy at that time?
 5 A    She didn't indicate she was unhappy at that
 6 time.
 7 Q    Now, on the 25th --
 8      Doctor, one second and let me ask you to back
 9 up.  You had talked about the events that really
10 kind of truly led into.  Now, you talked about since
11 all this, but truly led into the death of Michael
12 and Alex, and you started with the Friday when David
13 came by and cleaned the carpet and all the things
14 that we have talked about.
15      Do you have any information on the week prior,
16 the week, from Saturday, the 15th, through the 23rd?
17 A    I'm not recalling any terrible events during
18 that time.
19 Q    So you said any terrible events?
20 A    Any highly stressful events.
21 Q    As far as you know, she had a positive week
22 that week, from what she related?
23 A    No, that's not what I'm saying.  I think during
24 all of these weeks in October she was in a very
25 distressed state.  But I'm not remembering any

                                                 Page 88

 1 particular events that would -- that made things
 2 worse.
 3 Q    And so she was distressed, but she was out with
 4 friends at Hickory Nuts and Findlay's residence, is
 5 that correct?
 6 A    Yes.
 7 Q    And she did go out to dinner with Susan Brown
 8 and with Findlay and other things during that week?
 9 A    Oh, yes.
10 Q    And, again, the reason they wouldn't have
11 noticed depression was because when she's with them,
12 then she's not depressed, is that correct?
13 A    Or either she's not depressed, or she's not
14 showing it.
15 Q    Okay.  So she could be with them and be
16 depressed and not show it?
17 A    I think she's capable of that, yes.
18 Q    Just she's capable of having killed her
19 children and yet say that a black man did it, is
20 that correct?
21 A    She's capable of having run out of the car and
22 left them in an attempt to kill herself and then say
23 a black man did it, yes.
24 Q    Again, she's able -- she's able to kill her
25 children and say a black man did it?  She's capable

                                                 Page 89

 1 of it?
 2 A    She's capable of trying to save her life and
 3 let her kids die.
 4 Q    Now, doctor, on the 25th you had the lunch with
 5 Tom Findlay.  And did she relate that to you?  I
 6 think Tom Findlay.  It was the office?
 7 A    Yes.
 8 Q    She did relate that to you?
 9 A    Yes.
10 Q    And her demeanor was normal at that time?
11 A    I don't know.  Her demeanor was like apparently
12 nobody noticed anything unusual.
13 Q    And I noticed that you started with the
14 conversation at the -- the first conversation with
15 Tom Findlay in which she revealed the information
16 referenced Cary Findlay.  You started when you
17 explained to Mr. Bruck that she started the
18 conversation "but please don't hate me," is that
19 correct?
20 A    I think she started many conversations with
21 "please don't hate me" whenever she needs to reveal
22 something about herself that she wasn't proud of.
23 Q    But that was going to be my question.  You said
24 at that time that's what she usually said?
25 A    Yes.

                                                 Page 90

 1 Q    How did you base that?
 2 A    Both on what has been reported and material I
 3 have reviewed rom Dr. Andrews, and what Susan told
 4 me.
 5 Q    And then you said the second encounter with
 6 Findlay was what we are calling the studio, to be
 7 the second one, where she looked for a sign of
 8 affection, is that correct?
 9 A    I don't know what you mean by calling it the
10 studio.  When she went back to his office.
11 Q    Yes, sir, that's what we refer to as the second
12 one.
13 A    Yeah.  Yes.
14 Q    And when you say she wanted a sign of
15 affection, could you tell the jury what you mean by
16 that, that she wanted a sign of affection?
17 A    She felt that Tom was mad at her and she wanted
18 him to say that he still cared about her.
19 Q    And so that he was mad and that she was wanting
20 that he still cared, and he said that they could be
21 friends but there wouldn't be a sexual relationship
22 based on what she had alleged as far as her father?
23 A    That's right.  I believe she asked him for a
24 hug and he said no.
25 Q    Were you here when Mr. Findlay testified?

                                                 Page 91

 1 A    No.
 2 Q    Did she indicate to you during that time the
 3 incident involving Tom Findlay's sweat shirt?
 4 A    She never discussed that with me.
 5 Q    So do you have any information during those
 6 first two conversations of her -- I apologize again
 7 the words -- not gesture, and threat may be too
 8 strong a word, but a suicidal indication or that she --
 9 telling Tom Findlay that he may not see her again?
10 A    I don't believe she ever said that to Tom
11 Findlay.
12 Q    And, of course, that's based on again what Dr.
13 Andrews has given you and the conversations you had
14 with Susan?
15 A    That's right.
16 Q    Doctor, you said then the third time she came
17 back to what we are calling that the -- I believe
18 the back door, the third conversation when she came
19 back to Mr. Findlay, when she came back with Susan
20 Brown.  She discussed that with you?
21 A    Yes.
22 Q    And in that particular instance she related to
23 Mr. Findlay that she had in fact made up the story,
24 is that correct?
25 A    That's correct.

                                                 Page 92

 1 Q    And, again, that was for the purpose of, in
 2 essence, regaining Mr. Findlay or regaining his
 3 affection?
 4 A    Yes.
 5 Q    Then you related through the incidents as she
 6 had related when she got home, including cooking a
 7 pizza for the kids, and her mother calling.  I think
 8 actually her mother had called, and she got like a
 9 call-back?
10 A    Call-back, yes.
11 Q    Did she relate to you that her mother at one
12 point had offered to come over -- for her mother to
13 come over and be with her?
14 A    I don't remember that.
15 Q    Okay.
16 A    It's possible that she did, but I don't
17 remember that.
18 Q    Did she relate to you -- going back just a
19 step.  Between the time when she left work - that
20 was the studio conversation - and the time before
21 she came back to the back door to see Findlay, that
22 she had a conversation with her friend Donna Garner
23 in the parking lot?  Did she relate that to you?
24 A    I think she did.
25 Q    And in that conversation did Donna Garner offer

                                                 Page 93

 1 to go get Michael and Alex for Susan?
 2 A    I think that's right.
 3 Q    And you said the David had also called to check
 4 on them, and that he indicated that he noticed that
 5 something was wrong and he was concerned, is that
 6 correct?
 7 A    Well, he asked if he could help.
 8 Q    Okay.  So he offered to help her?
 9 A    Yes.
10 Q    And you said at that point the children were
11 crying?
12 A    I don't know that.  I don't know if that was
13 the exact point.
14 Q    Now, doctor, from the time that David Smith
15 called, from then on, there is no way to corroborate
16 outside information until after the incident at the
17 lake, is that correct?
18 A    That's true.
19 Q    So everything from the time David Smith called
20 until eight o'clock -- from eight o'clock on, until
21 she shows up at Shirley McCloud's door, you have to
22 solely rely on what Susan Smith told you, is that
23 correct?
24 A    I think everybody does.
25 Q    And again, doctor, we hit this initially.  She

                                                 Page 94

 1 gave you a detailed accounting of shaking,
 2 uncharacteristically turning off the radio, biting
 3 her nails, thinking she had to kill herself, and so
 4 on, is that correct?
 5 A    That's correct.
 6 Q    She even told you how she had stopped at one
 7 bridge and almost wanted to go off but didn't want
 8 to leave the kids, is that correct?
 9 A    That's correct.
10 Q    And then she ended up at John D. Long Lake,
11 according to her information to you, is that
12 correct?
13 A    Yes.
14 Q    Now, doctor, I want to be sure I understand,
15 and again appreciating that all you have is what she
16 related to you.  As far as the events at the lake,
17 she was on the ramp, is that correct?
18 A    Yes.
19 Q    She set the hand brake -- so she was on the
20 ramp at John D. Long Lake?
21 A    My understanding is she parked there and set
22 the brake.
23 Q    Parked on the ramp, is that correct?
24 A    Yes.
25 Q    And that she set the brake.  And that she then

                                                 Page 95

 1 released the brake?
 2 A    That's my understanding.
 3 Q    Did she indicate that the car was moving or
 4 not?
 5 A    Apparently started to move, and then she pulled
 6 the brake again.
 7 Q    And during that act, she knew that both the car
 8 would move if she dropped the brake, and that the
 9 car would stop if she pulled it up, is that correct?
10 A    Yes, she did.
11 Q    And then from your testimony she released the
12 brake again?
13 A    Yes.
14 Q    And the car started moving again?
15 A    Yes.
16 Q    And what did she do at that point?
17 A    She ran out of the car.
18 Q    So from what she related to you then, she has
19 her car stopped, releases the brake, the car rolls
20 and she stops it, and then she affirmatively puts
21 the brake down and gets out of the car, is that
22 correct?
23 A    She then again releases the brake and gets out
24 of the car.
25 Q    So the car is moving and she gets out of the

                                                 Page 96

 1 car, is that correct?
 2 A    Right.
 3 Q    So she only stopped and started one time,
 4 according to what she related to you?
 5 A    Yeah, which I think was different than her
 6 original confession.
 7 Q    Yes, sir.
 8      And, doctor, did she relate to you that -- you
 9 had talked about her getting to the top of the hill.
10 She ran from the car.  The car is moving -- and did
11 you have any opportunity to get any information
12 about the car, the nomenclature of the car, that
13 it's a straight drive, or anything like that?
14 A    It was -- I just know it was a 1990 Mazda.
15 Q    Did she indicate to you as the car was moving
16 that she stumbled, or fell, or anything of that
17 nature?
18 A    She said she was running and screaming.
19 Q    Running and screaming?
20 A    Yes.
21 Q    Up the ramp, or --
22 A    Up the ramp up the hill.
23 Q    And as she was running and screaming up the
24 ramp, did she indicate to you that she put her hands
25 over her ears so she wouldn't have to hear?

                                                 Page 97

 1 A    I have read some of the material that she did
 2 that.  I don't remember her telling me that.
 3 Q    And did she indicate to you at the time that
 4 she released the brake and exited the car, that
 5 Michael and Alex were in the back sleeping?
 6 A    She certainly knows that now.
 7 Q    Sir?
 8 A    She certainly knows that now.
 9 Q    Well, I know she knows that now.  What did she
10 relate as to then?
11 A    Well, as I indicated earlier in my testimony on
12 direct --
13 Q    Yes, sir.
14 A    -- that she -- at times she seems to say that
15 she knew that they were there.  And at times she
16 seems to think that she wasn't sure or didn't know
17 that they were there.  And because of that, I
18 conclude that she maybe does not remember what she
19 was thinking about then at the time.
20 Q    But she remembered everything all the way up
21 until the time she got out of the car and saved her
22 own life, is that correct?
23 A    I don't know what was going through her mind as
24 she drove up to the ramp.
25 Q    Doctor, with all respect -- of course, the only

                                                 Page 98

 1 person knows for sure is she and the children?
 2 A    Of course.
 3 Q    With all respect, you did say that she related
 4 to you enough to know that she affirmatively put it
 5 down and pulled it up and got out?
 6 A    Yes.
 7 Q    So as I understand, as far as them being awake
 8 or asleep, you don't have any information as to
 9 that, is that correct?
10 A    I think by the time they got to the lake, she
11 was aware that they were asleep.
12 Q    So when they got to the lake, she was aware
13 that they were asleep?
14 A    Yes.
15 Q    Did she indicate to you why she then has to put
16 her hands over her ears?
17 A    I don't know why.
18 Q    Doctor, you said that based on what she told
19 you, she got frightened and her suicidal -- her
20 survival instincts took over, is that right?
21 A    That's what I believe happened.
22 Q    I'm sorry, sir?
23 A    That's what I believe happened.
24 Q    So, in essence, her survival instincts overrode
25 her maternal instincts, is that correct?

                                                 Page 99

 1 A    I think that at that point that happened.
 2 Q    And, doctor, you had indicated, I believe, that
 3 from the information that you had that she was in
 4 fact a good mother, is that correct?
 5 A    That's correct.
 6 Q    And so she would have had strong maternal
 7 instincts in the way she took care of the children?
 8 A    Yes.
 9 Q    Doctor, based on what she's told you, you have
10 characterized this as a suicide attempt, an aborted
11 suicide attempt, is that a fair statement?
12 A    That's correct.
13 Q    And as part of that suicide attempt, did she
14 indicate to you that she intended to, in essence,
15 take her children with her or kill her children?
16 A    Yes.
17 Q    Okay.
18 A    Part of the time that was her intent.
19 Q    That, in essence, if she was going to commit
20 suicide, she was going to kill the children too, is
21 that correct?
22 A    She would take them with her.
23 Q    And, of course, you would agree that one
24 individual cannot suicide another?  Suicide is a
25 self-inflicted act, is that correct?

                                                 Page 100

 1 A    That's correct.
 2 Q    And so I can commit suicide.  But to take you
 3 with me, I would have to kill you?
 4 A    That's right.
 5 Q    And, doctor, again you had indicated she had
 6 told you a number of different stories as far as the
 7 specifics there at the ramp?
 8 A    The only number of different stories were as to
 9 her recollection of her awareness of the children.
10 Other than that, she was consistent.
11 Q    So everything involving anything, she's
12 consistent, she knows what she's talking about,
13 until it comes to telling you whether or not she
14 remembered if the kids were in the car?
15 A    At that particular moment when she ran out,
16 yes.
17 Q    But she had indicated to you an intent to kill
18 them prior to that?
19 A    Yes, along with herself.
20 Q    I'm sorry, sir?
21 A    Along with herself.
22 Q    Yes, sir.  And then now you had said ran up the
23 hill.  Have you had an opportunity to go out to John
24 D. Long Lake and look at that?
25 A    Unfortunately I have not.

                                                 Page 101

 1 Q    Would you like to see the pictures?
 2 A    Yes.
 3 Q    State's Exhibit 39.
 4 A    Can I orientate?
 5 Q    Yes, sir, this would be the ramp.  This is the
 6 parking area here.  And this is an incline.
 7      And so did she indicate to you -- and if you
 8 need to hold it, or if you want me to sit it down,
 9 the running up the hill involved the incline there
10 at the ramp, is that correct?
11 A    Yes.
12 Q    And so she said as she ran -- you said she was
13 making up her story concerning the black man and the
14 carjacking and all that, she was making up that
15 story as she was running up that hill, is that
16 correct?
17 A    My understanding is she didn't start to make up
18 the story until she got to what appears to be the
19 top of the hill, which would be in here.
20 Q    And, again, you haven't been there to note --
21 A    I have not been there no, sir.  But there were
22 a number of seconds in which she ran up that she was
23 not thinking very clearly at all.
24 Q    Would you indicate to the jury where you said
25 she began thinking?

                                                 Page 102

 1 A    My guess is it would be about here, from what
 2 she told me.
 3 Q    Could you tilt it up so all the jurors can see?
 4 A    Yes, sir.  About here.  And again I'm
 5 speculating from what she's told me.
 6 Q    So she told you she was able to recall when in
 7 the scheme of things that she started formulating
 8 the story about the black man and the carjacking?
 9 A    As she was running through the woods, and
10 that's -- I noticed in that picture the woods began
11 about there.  And I would think for that reason that
12 that is when she began to try to formulate a story.
13 Q    Doctor, I realize you said that you hadn't been
14 there, but this particular location -- the road
15 actually -- you don't -- the woods -- did she
16 indicate to you she ran through the woods?
17 A    She ran through a wooded area.
18 Q    But arguably --
19 A    She was on the road.
20 Q    Doctor, now, the previous two times that she
21 had intended to commit suicide or attempted to
22 commit suicide, there had been a report of some
23 form; the note to the teacher, or the trip to the
24 hospital, is that correct?
25 A    Yes.

                                                 Page 103

 1 Q    But on this particular incidents of similar
 2 suicide attempt, she did not report it when she got
 3 to the house?  That's correct, isn't it?
 4 A    That's correct.
 5 Q    And you said that you could find no evidenc
 6 that she prefabricated the story.  That's based on
 7 what she told you -- based what you have related as
 8 far as -- that she started thinking of the story
 9 that once she got to the edge of the woodline?
10 A    It's based on what she told me, and also upon
11 my belief that a person of Susan Smith's
12 intelligence would have come up with a better story.
13 Q    Now, doctor, you would agree that while she may
14 have come up with a better story, that she had a
15 story that for nine days had law enforcement looking
16 for a black man with a toboggan, right?
17 A    It was a very sensitive and very romantic and
18 gripping story.
19 Q    A sensitive romantic story, from the standpoint
20 of portraying Susan Smith as a tragic victim who had
21 lost her children?
22 A    Yes, that.  And the whole idea of the children
23 being carjacked would immediately get anybody's
24 attention in a very powerful way.
25 Q    Is it fair statement that that tragedy of that

                                                 Page 104

 1 nature would draw significant attention and sympathy
 2 to the parents of the children?
 3 A    Yes, sir, of course.
 4 Q    And specifically to an individual that was part
 5 of that crime?  When I say part of that crime,
 6 experienced the crime of the carjacking, the mother
 7 of the children as they were snatched from her?
 8 A    Yes.
 9 Q    Doctor, you had said that your opinion, based
10 on everything that you have seen, is that she had no
11 reason to lie to you at this point during the
12 interviews, and that she hadn't lied to you during
13 the interviews, is that correct?
14 A    I don't think she lied to me in any major way.
15 There may have been some incorrect things she told
16 me.  But on most points she told me was believable.
17 Q    And, of course, now Mr. Bruck had asked you --
18 you have since -- well, I say since.  Of course,
19 every time was post-incident, but Mr. Bruck had
20 asked you about her having remorse.  And you said
21 she did have remorse now, is that correct?
22 A    Yes.
23 Q    And, doctor, what do you categorize -- what is
24 remorse?  When you say remorse, a regret?
25 A    It is a very difficult concept.  It's a very

                                                 Page 105

 1 difficult thing to judge.  Some people are
 2 remorseful that they are in trouble.  And other
 3 people are remorseful over what they did.
 4      I did feel that Susan was very genuinely
 5 remorseful over what she did.
 6 Q    And what she did was roll Michael and Alex into
 7 the lake?
 8 A    That's right, and run out of that car.
 9 Q    And so you said that you felt she was genuinely
10 remorseful for what she did.  That's because she
11 told you she was genuinely remorseful for what she
12 did, is that correct?
13 A    She told me that, and I believed her.
14 Q    Doctor, you have related in clear terms to Mr.
15 Bruck that you have a strong opinion that the intent
16 here was Susan Smith's suicide?
17 A    Yes.
18 Q    And that suicide certainly involved, as you
19 have related it, the taking of Michael and Alex with
20 her, or the killing of Michael and Alex?
21 A    Yes.
22 Q    So regardless of whether your opinion is a
23 hundred percent correct, she still affirmatively
24 chose to kill Michael and Alex, is that correct?
25 A    Yes.

                                                 Page 106

 1 Q    Doctor, I have just a few more questions and
 2 I'll be through.
 3      Doctor, you have clearly -- you have indicated
 4 that she did intend to kill the children.  You also
 5 indicated to me earlier that --
 6      MR. BRUCK:  Objection, Your Honor.  That
 7 misstates the testimony.
 8      THE COURT:  Well, let's not testify anyway.  If
 9 you have got a question, go ahead and ask the
10 question.
11      MR. POPE:  I'll stand by the doctor's previous
12 answer.
13      THE COURT:  Very well, sir.
14 Q    Doctor, after that question you had previously
15 indicated that she did know right from wrong, and
16 that she had the ability to make a choice, is that
17 correct?
18 A    Yes.
19 Q    Doctor, I know I have said this a number of
20 times now.  You have clearly indicated to the jury
21 what you base your information on, which is your
22 questioning and the information that you had.  And
23 you would agree that she's told different stories at
24 different times, is that correct?
25 A    With regard to the events?

                                                 Page 107

 1 Q    Yes.
 2 A    Well, she certainly has been consistent since I
 3 have been seeing her.
 4 Q    She's been consistent with you?
 5 A    That's correct.
 6 Q    In now these stories she's told you?
 7 A    Yes.
 8 Q    And, again, the story -- when we get right down
 9 to the incidents, it comes to the point of whether
10 she is believable or not, because that's all you can
11 rely on is what she's telling you, is that correct?
12 A    I think there is a lot more evidence, other
13 than what she's told me, that this is a very
14 seriously disordered person.
15 Q    A seriously disordered person.  But that has
16 nothing to do with the issues that you have
17 addressed as far as her criminal responsibility, her
18 intent, or any of those things, is that correct?
19 A    Well, it does relate to the issue that she was
20 trying to kill herself at the time -- that she was
21 trying to kill herself at the time the children
22 died.
23 Q    You say it does relate to that?
24 A    Oh, yes.
25 Q    But, again, you agree that the fact she's

                                                 Page 108

 1 trying to kill herself when the children dies does
 2 not change the fact that she knew killing the
 3 children was wrong, that she could choose not to
 4 kill the children, and that she intended to kill the
 5 children?
 6 A    She knew it was criminally wrong, and she was
 7 able to choose not to do that.
 8 Q    And she made the choice to do it, is that
 9 correct?
10 A    She made the choice to do that.  She intended
11 to kill herself and the children.
12 Q    Doctor, certainly if you found -- based on my
13 understanding of your research and your approach, if
14 you were to now find out or to find out that Susan
15 Smith had given you false information during your
16 interview, could that change or affect your opinion?
17 A    Of course it could.  I should say I wouldn't be
18 very shocked to find out that most of the
19 information she gave me was false.
20 Q    You say you would be shocked?
21 A    I wouldn't be very shocked to find out.
22 Q    But you would agree that many people were
23 shocked when they found out the truth in this case,
24 too?
25 A    Yes.

                                                 Page 109

 1 Q    Okay.
 2      MR. POPE:  Beg the court's indulgence.
 3 Q    Thank you, doctor.
 4      THE COURT:  Anything on redirect, counsel?
 5      MR. BRUCK:  Thank you.
 6 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BRUCK:
 7 Q    Doctor, I'm going to -- Mr. Pope asked you
 8 about whether Susan Smith had a belief that her
 9 father could not be in heaven, because -- or whether
10 she firmly believed that her father could not be in
11 heaven because he had committed suicide.
12      I would like to show you the counseling records
13 to which he referred, and ask you if you recognize
14 them or are you familiar with their contents?  And
15 particularly draw your attention to the highlighted
16 portion.
17 A    I don't think I have reviewed these before.  Do
18 you want me to read this?
19 Q    If you would, pertaining to --
20 A    All right.  "Has one very close friend.  Does
21 not want to hurt her friends or leave them feeling
22 guilty.  Worries that -- something in hell.
23 Q    "Father in hell."
24 A    "Father in hell because committed suicide.  We
25 discussed how does she know if she finds him if she

                                                 Page 110

 1 died."
 2 Q    Let me just stop you there.
 3      That was "worries that father in hell because
 4 he committed suicide."
 5 A    Yes.
 6 Q    This appears to be notes of conversations of
 7 Ms. Sweet and Susan?
 8 A    Yes.
 9 Q    Does the phrase "that she worries that her
10 father is in hell because he committed suicide"
11 indicate to you a fixed belief that if her father
12 had committed suicide, he could not be in heaven?
13 A    Not necessarily.
14 Q    It's a concern of hers?
15 A    She's concerned about that.
16 Q    And, of course, the Bible teaches that suicide
17 is a sin?
18 A    It's a sin, but there is a lot of different
19 teachings in the Bible, and depending upon what
20 religion as to whether that keeps you out of heaven.
21 Q    Do you know if this was an issue about which
22 Susan worried and still does worry?
23 A    I think she worries about it much more now.  I
24 think she worried about it some in the past.
25 Q    Uncertain about the answer?

                                                 Page 111

 1 A    I think she feels very strongly that good
 2 people get to heaven, whether they kill themselves
 3 or not.
 4 Q    Now, you spent a total of how many hours with
 5 Susan?
 6 A    Approximately thirteen.
 7 Q    Approximately thirteen?
 8 A    Uh-huh.
 9 Q    And then an additional period of time reviewing
10 evidence in the case?
11 A    Yes.
12 Q    Mr. Pope pointed out that you did not see her
13 until after I had become her lawyer?
14 A    That's correct.
15 Q    Now, that is invariably the situation, is it
16 not, in a forensic setting?
17 A    Yeah, that's obvious.
18 Q    You indicatevarious -- you listed some of the
19 indications that caused you to conclude that she was
20 being truthful to you.
21      Did you find any indications that I had told
22 her what to say?
23 A    Absolutely not.
24 Q    Or that anyone else had, that she was repeating
25 what anyone else had told her what to say?

                                                 Page 112

 1 A    Oh, I occasionally found her saying things that
 2 I think she may have learned from her therapist
 3 about herself, but none of these were self-serving
 4 things.
 5 Q    None of these were things that made her appear
 6 any better for the purpose of your --
 7 A    No, these were just inside about herself.
 8 Q    You referred to mental disorder, and you have
 9 talked about this depressive condition, not
10 otherwise specified I think is the technical term?
11 A    Correct.
12 Q    A depressive disorder.
13      In ordinary language, is a mental disorder a
14 mental illness?
15 A    In ordinary language it is.
16 Q    Okay.  So while I realize there is some
17 technical concern about the term illness, ordinary
18 people talk about mental disorder, mental illness,
19 they mean what you mean by mental disorder, is that
20 not correct?
21 A    That's correct.
22 Q    You indicated that Susan has no memory on her
23 own, or very little memory, I should say, about her
24 natural father Harry Vaughn?
25 A    That's right.

                                                 Page 113

 1 Q    And what she knows, she has been told by others
 2 about her relationship with him?
 3 A    Yes.
 4 Q    Has she gotten information about that since her --
 5 has she asked about the circumstances of his
 6 suicide?
 7 A    Yes, she has.  And some of it when she got
 8 older, and some of it since the offense.
 9 Q    Do you know if her brother Scotty has told her
10 information about her father and her relationship
11 with her father and her father's feelings for her?
12 A    Yes.
13 Q    Have you seen the information that Scotty has
14 related to her, do you know?
15 A    No.
16 Q    Mr. Pope was asking you about the sexual
17 molestation.
18      Now, for the purposes of what you are on the
19 stand here for today and what you are doing here in
20 this trial, which is to assess the issue of suicide,
21 what is the relevance of the sexual molestation, if
22 any?
23 A    The relevance is that it made her much more
24 guilt ridden and more depressed.  And depression is
25 related to suicide.

                                                 Page 114

 1 Q    Does sexual abuse in childhood or adolescent
 2 also increase -- well, let me put it a different
 3 way.
 4      Are there a number of effects which can result
 5 from sexual abuse, other than or in addition to
 6 depression?  I don't mean to list them all, but are
 7 there other results?
 8 A    There are behavioral consequences, like getting
 9 involved in unsatisfactory sexual relationships is
10 very characteristic.  Even if one is not depressed,
11 routinely very poor image of themself.  Or having
12 very poor self confidence is another aspect of it.
13 Sometimes there is a great deal of anxiety.  And
14 generally it interferes with having a satisfactory
15 sex life.
16 Q    Okay.
17 A    And what hasn't come up yet is that Susan
18 rarely enjoys sex.  She's sexually active, but is
19 rarely pleasured.
20 Q    I was going to ask you about that.  You are
21 saying that she rarely derives physical pleasure
22 from sex?
23 A    That's correct, and often feels terrible
24 afterwards.
25 Q    Well, why on earth would she do it?

                                                 Page 115

 1 A    I think it is partly led to her early abuse
 2 experiences and partly related to her wish to
 3 please.
 4 Q    Now, the early abuse experiences with --
 5 A    With Bev Russell.
 6 Q    With her stepfather?
 7 A    With her stepfather.
 8 Q    And partly related to --
 9 A    Partly related to her wish to please.  It's
10 very interesting that in almost all of her
11 relationships she gives gifts to men.  She can
12 hardly recall a time that any man has given her
13 anything.
14      She was extremely reluctant to ever ask a man
15 to do anything for her sexually.  Most of the time
16 she felt just awful after sex, often cried after
17 sex.
18 Q    But continued to engage in these relationships?
19 A    Continued to engage in them, to please the men.
20 Q    To please the men.
21 A    But she could often have sex with David, even
22 after they were separated, and did not enjoy it.
23 Q    And why did she do that with him then?
24 A    I think because she hoped to get him back, and
25 did not want the marriage to break up.

                                                 Page 116

 1 Q    Didn't want to be alone?
 2 A    That's right.
 3 Q    Now, you have talked about her bond with her
 4 children, her love for her children, and her need to
 5 please.  And I guess I need you to compare these.
 6      Is her -- you have evaluated her in some depth?
 7 A    That's correct.
 8 Q    Do you feel that her need to please -- do you
 9 have an opinion as to whether her need to please Tom
10 Findlay could lead her to put her children in John
11 D. Long Lake?
12 A    I feel that that's an absurd idea.
13 Q    An absurd idea?
14 A    Yes.
15 Q    Why do you say that?
16 A    Because she loved her children dearly.  And
17 what hasn't been said yet is that in terms of people
18 who loved her unconditionally, her children were the
19 only ones who loved her unconditionally.  Her
20 children were the only ones that she didn't need to
21 please to keep their love, and they were extremely
22 important to her.  And to me it seems absurd that
23 she would get rid of her children for a passing love
24 affair.
25 Q    And you call the relationship with Mr. Findlay

                                                 Page 117

 1 a passing love affair.  What makes you say that?
 2 A    Because in my interviews with Susan, I found
 3 evidence that she had strong feelings for a lot of
 4 different men, and it's very unlikely that Tom
 5 Findlay was number one on that list.
 6 Q    Now, you have described her need to please
 7 other people, and you put that in extremely strong
 8 terms.
 9      Is there a psychiatric diagnosis, is there a
10 psychiatric condition, in addition to, or a part
11 from, her depression that fits what you are
12 describing when you talk about this need to please
13 other people?
14 A    Yes, there is.
15 Q    And if you could tell the jury what that is and
16 what it consists of and what signs you found or
17 evidence you found in Susan Smith?
18 A    It is formally listed as a personality
19 disorder.  And it's put on what's called Axis II of
20 the diagnostic system.  And I wish you won't be
21 asking me to get into that, because it's technical
22 and has no meaning here.
23 Q    I can assure you I won't.
24 A    It refers to a personality disorder, which is a
25 set of traits in which people become fixed in a way

                                                 Page 118

 1 people perceive, interact, or think about themselves
 2 and others.
 3      And a person with a dependent personality is an
 4 individual who feels that she cannot do things on
 5 her own; that she must rely on others to do things
 6 for her; that she constantly needs affection from
 7 others; and is terrified that others might leave her
 8 and that she will be alone.
 9 Q    And do you find that Susan Smith has a
10 dependent personality disorder?
11 A    She has about a severe a dependent personality
12 disorder as I've ever seen.
13 Q    Now, is this part of depression, or is this
14 something from a psychiatric point of view that is
15 separate?
16 A    Personality disorders don't make you depressed
17 in themselves.  They don't make you anxious in
18 themselves.  They cause you trouble with people.
19 And the trouble with people contributes to the
20 depression.
21      So as she goes around trying to please
22 everybody, she gets into trouble.  She gets involved
23 with more than one man.  She then begins to feel
24 guilty, and that really contributes to her
25 depression.

                                                 Page 119

 1 Q    I see.  But it is possible -- I'm not talking
 2 about Susan now, but it is possible to have a
 3 depressive disorder and not have a dependent
 4 personality?
 5 A    That's right.
 6 Q    And it is possible to have a dependent
 7 personality disorder and not have depression?
 8 A    Possible, but usually people with dependent
 9 personality disorder do experience depression at
10 some time.
11 Q    For the reasons that you --
12 A    For the reasons I have just elaborated, yes.
13 Q    But in Susan you find both?
14 A    Yes.
15 Q    Mr. Pope was asking you about this idea of
16 Susan's not protesting or not objecting to the
17 initial sexual contact from her stepfather Beverly
18 Russell.
19      From your review of the records, is it true
20 that she took no action to stop this over the entire
21 period of time?
22 A    She told many people about it.
23 Q    She told many people about it?
24 A    Yes.
25 Q    You mentioned her mother?

                                                 Page 120

 1 A    Yes.
 2 Q    Anybody else?
 3 A    School counselors.  I think several school
 4 counselors.
 5 Q    And then, of course, the therapist later?
 6 A    And her therapist, yes.
 7 Q    Did you find in the history that her contact
 8 with her stepfather then, or at any other time, gave
 9 her sexual pleasure?
10 A    Absolutely not.  She talked about feeling like
11 her skin was crawling after she had any kind of
12 sexual contact with him.
13 Q    But she did it anyway?
14 A    But she did it anyway.
15 Q    Now, we began the chronology of the events
16 right around Michael and Alex's death on Friday,
17 October 21st, when you described the fight, the
18 argument with David and Susan and David's --
19      MR. POPE:  Your Honor, I'm going to have to
20 object.  I don't think redirect -- this is not a new
21 matter.  This is going through the same thing.
22      THE COURT:  Yeah, counsel, it seems to me we
23 are getting beyond the scope of redirect in that
24 it's beyond the scope of cross-examination.
25      MR. BRUCK:  All right, sir.

                                                 Page 121

 1      THE COURT:  I'm trying to allow a wide
 2 latitude, but -- you may continue, but let's keep it
 3 in mind the scope of it.
 4 Q    Mr. Pope asked you about things that happened
 5 out of the ordinary during this period.  Do your
 6 records indicate any facts about having -- about
 7 Susan's having had a letter stolen from her,
 8 unbeknownst to her during that time?
 9      MR. POPE:  Your Honor, Mr. Bruck is leading.
10 If he will ask him if there is anything unusual, and
11 certainly the witness can answer it, but Mr. Bruck
12 is leading.
13      MR. BRUCK:  I need to focus in a little more
14 than that?
15      THE COURT:  I'll allow it.  The witness may
16 answer the question.
17 A    I'm trying to remember if I already did say
18 something about Susan having discovered that David
19 had pilfered a letter, the one that Tom Findlay had
20 written to her.
21 Q    Or at least that she obtained the information --
22 A    She had obtained through the girlfriend
23 Tiffany.
24 Q    On October -- Friday, October 21st, when Mr.
25 Pope was asking you about this conversation she had

                                                 Page 122

 1 with David, did Susan then know where he had
 2 obtained all this information?
 3 A    No, she did not.
 4 Q    Okay.  And do you recall any concern that she
 5 had that her phone was tapped?
 6 A    Yes, she was concerned about that.
 7 Q    Okay.  Was that something that he led her to
 8 believe?
 9 A    Well, she thought that -- he told her that he
10 was having her followed.
11 Q    Right.
12 A    And since he had information which he thought
13 was about Cary Findlay, she though that phone was
14 tapped.
15 Q    If you would look at Susan right now, does she
16 have a major mental illness right now?
17 A    Yes.
18 Q    What is the name of that major mental illness?
19 A    Major depressive disorder.
20 Q    Major depressive disorder.  Is there any doubt
21 whatsoever in your mind that she suffers from this
22 disorder at this time?
23 A    There is no doubt whatsoever.
24 Q    Could you tell that she is suffering from a
25 major depressive disorder by looking at her?

                                                 Page 123

 1 A    No.
 2 Q    Could anyone else?
 3 A    No.
 4 Q    Mr. Pope asked you about whether she -- whether
 5 you knew that she had gone back to Tom on the
 6 afternoon of the 25th and told him that she had lied
 7 about having some sexual contact with his father
 8 Cary Findlay, and you said that you knew that she
 9 had said that?
10 A    Yes.
11 Q    Based on your review of the history and your
12 many hours of discussions with Susan, did she lie to
13 Tom about having a sexual relationship with Cary
14 Findlay?
15 A    When she told him she had sex with Cary
16 Findlay, she told the truth.
17 Q    That was the truth?
18 A    That's right.
19 Q    Mr. Pope questioned you some about the ramp and
20 the road and asked you where it was that Susan first
21 began to formulate the story.
22      Now, of course, you told him that you had not
23 been there, is that right?
24 A    That's right.
25 Q    And, in fact, this case having moved along,

                                                 Page 124

 1 wasn't our original plan that you would be here
 2 sooner?
 3 A    We have talked about it several times, and I
 4 was looking forward to looking at it.  And I feel
 5 it's a defect in my testimony that I didn't see it.
 6 Q    But that you ended up having to testify earlier
 7 than we had expected?
 8 A    Yes.
 9 Q    So you were not familiar with the parking lot
10 and the road that leads up to Shirley McCloud's
11 house?  You had never been there?
12 A    I have never been there.
13 Q    And would have no way of picturing Susan's
14 story in that context?
15 A    I have tried to put it in my mind, tried to
16 develop a mental picture of it.  Of course, I have
17 seen pictures of the lake from the press.  And I
18 thought I was fairly close to being able to
19 visualize it, but I certainly can't be sure.
20 Q    And even if you had gone to the lake, of
21 course, Susan is in prison and couldn't have been
22 there with you?
23 A    That's right.
24 Q    So she could not have shown you the spot, or
25 where she fell, or where she stopped and tried to

                                                 Page 125

 1 look, or anything else?
 2 A    That's correct.
 3 Q    And Mr. Pope asked you about that there was an
 4 intent at one point, or at several times during this
 5 car ride, to kill both herself and Michael and Alex
 6 in a suicide -- in what's called an extended
 7 suicide?
 8 A    Yes.
 9 Q    Is that right?
10 A    Yes.
11 Q    At the moment she saves herself, do you know
12 what her intent was with respect to Michael and
13 Alex?
14 A    I don't really know, because I don't think she
15 has a full recollection of whether the children were
16 in the car.
17 Q    Of whether she knew that the children were in
18 the car?
19 A    Whether she knew the children were in the car,
20 at that second.
21 Q    So it is possible that she did and possible
22 that she didn't?
23 A    That's right.
24 Q    Okay.
25      MR. BRUCK:  If you will bear with me just a

                                                 Page 126

 1 moment.
 2      (off the record)
 3      (back on the record)
 4      MR. BRUCK:  That's all I have.
 5      MR. POPE:  If it please the court?
 6      THE COURT:  Yes, I'll allow it.
 7 RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. POPE:
 8 Q    Doctor, I want to make sure I understand.
 9      The kind of mental disorder and mental illness,
10 is that the same thing, as the way Mr. Bruck was
11 just asking?
12 A    Mental disorder is what we call it in our
13 diagnostic system, because the terms illness and
14 disease are very, very difficult to define.  And
15 they wanted to keep the DSM broad enough to include
16 a lot of things, which are arguably not as serious
17 as some other things, so they use the term disorder.
18 Q    So there are disorders, mental disorders, that
19 range from something extremely severe, like someone
20 being psychotic, all the way to sleep disorders and
21 nocotine dependence or alcohol dependence?
22 A    Exactly.  Exactly.
23 Q    So it runs a whole range, is that correct?
24 A    Correct.
25 Q    Now, you said that -- Mr. Bruck had you look

                                                 Page 127

 1 over at the defendant and said as she sits here
 2 today nine months later she has a major depression
 3 now.  Is that what you are saying?
 4 A    Yes.
 5 Q    Thank you.  And the questions Mr. Bruck asked
 6 you, and I'm merciful for everybody.  I'm not going
 7 to go back through all the dates and all the times.
 8 A    Thank you.
 9 Q    The questions that Mr. Bruck asked, did they
10 change your opinion that you gave me concerning her
11 criminal responsibility?
12 A    No.
13 Q    Did they change your opinion concerning her
14 ability to make choices?
15 A    No.
16 Q    Did they change your opinion concerning her
17 intent toward Michael and Alex?
18 A    Well, I would just like to make clear her
19 intent was to kill herself as well.
20 Q    Doctor, I know we have been through this again.
21 I can choose to commit suicide.  If I take you with
22 me, I have murdered you, I have not suicided you, is
23 that correct?
24 A    I wouldn't argue with that.
25 Q    I'm sorry, sir?

                                                 Page 128

 1 A    I would not argue with that.
 2 Q    So that is correct?
 3 A    Yes.
 4      MR. POPE:  Thank you, sir.
 5      MR. POPE:  I have no further questions, Your
 6 Honor.
 7      THE COURT:  All right, sir.  Anything on a
 8 final redirect, counsel?
 9      MR. BRUCK:  No, sir.
10      THE COURT:  All right, sir, you may come down.
11 A    Thank you.
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